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Why do you grief?


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On 21 December 2018 at 1:21 AM, Nomad said:

Because I'm an outlaw.  Next time initiate or accept a feud round with the person shooting you and maybe earn some XP out of it.

That is the reason I kill NPCs, I'm RPing being an outlaw, a killer.  Fair enough.

BUT - I don't grief PCs.  Because that has real world consequences on real life people - their time, their emotions, their enjoyment.  

So if you want to be an outlaw, kill NPCs (or PCs in series matches).  

Unless you're a real life outlaw, I can't see how 'Because I'm an outlaw (in a game)' can be any justification for causing real life hurt or loss to real people, any more than me being an outlaw in RDO can justify bullying my neighbours kid.

Do you have a further explanation? Because if you just want to roleplay being an outlaw you can do that very well killing NPCs without griefing people.

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3 hours ago, Poggy said:

Do you have a further explanation? Because if you just want to roleplay being an outlaw you can do that very well killing NPCs without griefing people.

....exactly.  Maybe it's because the NPCs aren't defenseless and shoot back.  😄

Edited by Kean_1
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... Or maybe it's exactly because targeting PCs causes real world discomfort that it is enjoyable.  And the outlaw claim was an attempt to justify a form of minor sadism in public.

But rather than speculating, perhaps unfairly, I'd actually like a response from the poster.  I may be wholly wrong.

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54 minutes ago, Poggy said:

... Or maybe it's exactly because targeting PCs causes real world discomfort that it is enjoyable.  And the outlaw claim was an attempt to justify a form of minor sadism in public.

But rather than speculating, perhaps unfairly, I'd actually like a response from the poster.  I may be wholly wrong.

Well, you already know he's going to give a response meant to rile people up regardless.  ......it's what true trolls do.   

It's pointless to try and dissect people like this.  ......really, it is.

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On 12/22/2018 at 7:59 PM, Nomad said:

I do engage them.  I engage players by killing them.

Roll on the private lobbies when we can be free of the detritus. When I played it online this other player lassoed me, hog tied me, plonked me on the back of my own horse and then she rode off. Thought that was quite funny tbh. 

Edited by Diss
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Hey Guys, new poster here but been playing RDR2 both Story and Online for a while. Came across this thread and felt compelled to comment as I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of folks indicating their annoyance at "Griefing" within the online portion of the game.

Without giving away my age I have been gaming online for around 15-20 years in some form or another and I've never seen such a raft of "Gamers" who are intent on causing misery for the majority of online players. I'd hoped that given RDR2 is not your typical run 'n' gun shooter that we might get fewer trolls/griefers in game and have more of a strategic, co-op, live and let live style experience but it seems like even the Old West ain't safe from over privileged 12 year olds with guns!

Anyway, hopefully I'll see some of you guys online.....promise I won't shoot you while you're at the General Store 😉

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I think that "griefing" as an act of preemptive action - ie. you are riding up a path at a trot or standing still and another player is riding directly at you at full speed and appears to have ill intent (such as weapon drawn) and said player does not attempt to spam whistle or give some indication of peaceful intent (although it may create a feud with that player), it is acceptable to engage them. However, griefing outside of those parameters or spawn killing is totally unacceptable, IMO.

Edited by The Coca-Cola Kid
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Why do I do it?? Cause I can.. I enjoy riding up and just dropping another player for no reason.. I  enjoy taking their hunt.. I am an outlaw.. its what we do.. Do you want to be a jedi or a sith? A deputy or a outlaw or general population? Just to be fair.. I pick a spot in a map and anything in my way or area gets put down. From animals to npc to players.. my goal is to put down more people than the pleague.. I want my rep on the game to be known as the best gun in all of new hangover..

Don’t give me this crap about thats not how you are in real life crap.. its a game.. I am playing a game as an outlaw that wants to ride into town and have everyone scatter and hide.. if you want to play as a deputy and go after “griefer” then by all means.. 

To all these “anti griefer” posse.. bring it..don’t act like you are untouchable..

 

Edited by The Ugly
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11 hours ago, Poggy said:

Why is it fun to kill innocents bystanders?  You do realise you might be causing someone real world distress and annoyance?

Nah I'm sorry but if you are that fragile you should stick to single player. It's a game with a PvP element, most of the organised games/activities are PvP based. 

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18 minutes ago, Jenkouk said:

Nah I'm sorry but if you are that fragile you should stick to single player. It's a game with a PvP element, most of the organised games/activities are PvP based. 

Oh, I see.  So it's the victims fault.  My bad.

If you have been hunting for half an hour, collecting high value pelts and carcasses, and then I kill you whilst you are in a skinning animation, and thus you lose the benefit of your actions for the past 30 minutes, then if you feel the slightest twang of annoyance you are fragile and should not play the game.  Gotcha.  

Well, although we may have to agree to disagree on whether such behaviour and opinion is immoral, selfish and dispicable, at least I hope that you are not a hypocrite, and that should you ever feel any negative emotion whatsoever next time someone interferes with your gaming you will leave RDO forever.

 

8 hours ago, The Ugly said:

Don’t give me this crap about thats not how you are in real life crap.. its a game.. I

But even games can have real world effects on people??

For example, let's say I was able, somehow, to delete all your RDO saved data right now, would you be ok with that because 'it's just a game' and 'I can?'

If not, then you must justify your hypocrisy, for killing someone who then loses pelts (data) is the same principle, just a lesser degree, like the difference between giving someone a paper cut or a punctured spleen (both are wrong, just one is worse).

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51 minutes ago, Jenkouk said:

Happens to me, I've been killed when my horse is loaded but I understand that it's a game and that people may kill you for any reason at any point so I come to terms with that and play accordingly. Get off your high horse.

So, further to your victim blaming justification, you now add the further justifications, 'it's happened to me' and 'it's a game.'

Do you understand why these don't function very well as justifiers for a morally questionable act?

Let's consider an unspecified act, X, which we know causes some small degree of loss of goods and negative emotional response in some people.  Would be OK to do X based on the following: they are too fragile and shouldn't get upset; but someone did it to me; it's only a game?

I don't think you've thought through your ethical position here.

 

Edit: addition - your phrase 'come to terms with' being griefed implies your initial response was an emotional negative that you had to rationalise - which raises the spectre of hypocrisy with calling others too fragile to play the game.

Edited by Poggy
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Sorry to second post, but perhaps an analogy might help prime people's moral intuitions here.

Imagine a community hall where local kids go and play.  The hall is like RDO, a space where people can engage in various activities under the same roof.

In one corner of the hall Ronald, Mo and Destiny are playing a board game (a series death match); in another corner Sammy and Yuko are seeing who can bounce the ball highest (stranger mission and interference); in yet another corner little Timmy is quietly colouring in a colouring book (free roam herb collecting).

In walks Jed.  Now, if Jed joins Ron, Mo and Destiny, plays fair, wins, and Mo gets upset at losing, then Mo is just being childish and Jed did nothing wrong.  But what if Jed walks over to Little Timmy and scribbles over Timmy's picture?  Isn't it clear that Jed is now acting like an asshat?  And what if challenged Jed replies that Timmy knew this could happen when he came in the hall, that Timmy shouldn't be fragile and should play at home, and that it happened to him last week so it's ok for him to do it to someone else.

Isnt it obvious that Jed is in the wrong?

 

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3 hours ago, Poggy said:

Sorry to second post, but perhaps an analogy might help prime people's moral intuitions here.

Imagine a community hall where local kids go and play.  The hall is like RDO, a space where people can engage in various activities under the same roof.

In one corner of the hall Ronald, Mo and Destiny are playing a board game (a series death match); in another corner Sammy and Yuko are seeing who can bounce the ball highest (stranger mission and interference); in yet another corner little Timmy is quietly colouring in a colouring book (free roam herb collecting).

In walks Jed.  Now, if Jed joins Ron, Mo and Destiny, plays fair, wins, and Mo gets upset at losing, then Mo is just being childish and Jed did nothing wrong.  But what if Jed walks over to Little Timmy and scribbles over Timmy's picture?  Isn't it clear that Jed is now acting like an asshat?  And what if challenged Jed replies that Timmy knew this could happen when he came in the hall, that Timmy shouldn't be fragile and should play at home, and that it happened to him last week so it's ok for him to do it to someone else.

Isnt it obvious that Jed is in the wrong?

 

Your analogy suck btw.. if your community hall has rules to prevent Jed from being an asshat the  sure you’re right.. but the rdr2o world doesn’t have those rules.. the game is about cowboys and outlaws..

you’re getting upset over something the game allows players to do. Think about that. If the game was setup to where outlaws were hunted more and punishment such as losing money or shoot on site when you enter a town would people still do it? I know I would. I want other players and npc to hunt me down. For some people the outlaw part of the game is what we like. Having to run from the law and staying alive. 

if by deleting my account you are hacking to erase it.. no thats not within the game. If you want to act like a lawmen and kill me which then takes say money from my character then sure I am ok with that. Anything thats allowed in the games minus cheats/glitches I am all for.. if you want to set up a special icon that comes up for me and force other players to come after me to collect a bounty then go for it. I am game. If I lose money for everytime I am caught. I am game. Like I said before, I am playing the game and my character is that crazy outlaw like you see in movies. I take out everything even NPC that are in my way. If they want to set up a friendly mode where everyone who just wants to fish and hunt has a honor icon and can’t aim at each other is fine. Outlaws with have the dishonor icon and can aim in on everyone. If you want to switch it makes you wait a few minutes. That way everyone knows what everyone’s intent is right off the bat. 

The issue isn’t “greifing”. The issue is people can’t seperate themselves from the game. You want this perfect little candyland with sun shines and rainbows. Which can all be had if you stick to story mode, but you want to venture out into online world and expect everyone to live by your rules and not what the game allows. Maybe not knowing what other players intent is thats making the game harder for people. Like my icon idea. If you see my dishonor icon near ya, you would know whats about to happen as to just a red dot coming up on ya and you wait to see why.. only to be headshot right off the bat.  I can see how that would annoy people. Its the unknown part that results in you getting shot that sucks and brings ya down..  but when that unknown just passes by.. you get that he is cool and up feel that some people aren’t bad..

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Ugly
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Wow haha this seems to be a heated discussion. Haha while I don’t agree with the premise of griefing, I can wrap my head around a person doing it if that is in line with their character, especially if you are kind of sticking to an area, not chasing another player from St Denis to New Austin. After all it is just a game. I am more curious about the “I act on choice X because I can. As opposed to “I act on choice X because I should.” If your character is a bad guy, then he SHOULD do evil things, because it is his nature. However, an evil person doesn’t do things simply because they can, because you CAN pick flowers all day in RDR2, but I assume you choose not to. So again, I accept griefing if they are doing it for an RP reason, that makes the game interesting IMO. It would be fun to have “Law” posses to hunt outlaw players, it would make for some more immersive and fun RPing. Either way, it’s all (usually) in good fun and it’s just a game, as mentioned several times before. Haha done with my diatribe, Merry Christmas!

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1 hour ago, The Coca-Cola Kid said:

Wow haha this seems to be a heated discussion. Haha while I don’t agree with the premise of griefing, I can wrap my head around a person doing it if that is in line with their character, especially if you are kind of sticking to an area, not chasing another player from St Denis to New Austin. After all it is just a game. I am more curious about the “I act on choice X because I can. As opposed to “I act on choice X because I should.” If your character is a bad guy, then he SHOULD do evil things, because it is his nature. However, an evil person doesn’t do things simply because they can, because you CAN pick flowers all day in RDR2, but I assume you choose not to. So again, I accept griefing if they are doing it for an RP reason, that makes the game interesting IMO. It would be fun to have “Law” posses to hunt outlaw players, it would make for some more immersive and fun RPing. Either way, it’s all (usually) in good fun and it’s just a game, as mentioned several times before. Haha done with my diatribe, Merry Christmas!

I play as the outlaw.. i had a posse hunt me down all over the map. I started it and they finished it. They got the best of me which is fine. At the end of the day I sent them a message saying good game and good job. I wouldn’t hunt someone down all over the map, hell I don’t even do it when its a mission to kill another player half wat across the map. I will get ya when you are hunting/fishing or in town if you happen to be in the area of my travel. One guy said I was being shady/sneak like I was pretending to hunt near him before shooting him so he would let his guard down. Really I was just putting down whatever animal that was in my way including him.

I have done good deeds before like taking a players that are AFK outside of a town to a safe place without killing them, but majority of the time I want to be hunted down. Lawmen arent much of a challenge. If you are constantly getting killed by lawmen then you should rethink the role you want to play on the game. If I log on and all 31 players on the server get a notification to come after me, that would be a great game. 

 

Edited by The Ugly
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See I’m all good with griefing in that manner. After all, it is the “Wild” West  the land has not been civilized yet and  Just like the zombie survival or post-apocalyptic games, a person would most likely encounter others that are “opportunistic predators” ie out to loot and kill and cause carnage. I think the law/outlaw in-game dynamic would be fun as well...

Edited by The Coca-Cola Kid
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Oh dear, Ugly ... So many words, so little comprehension. :)

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree as I don't think a protracted ethical debate on a forum is going to lead anywhere.  

I think my reasoning and analogy sound, you don't.  Well, I don't have the ability to convince you if your conscience and my posts can't already get through to you.  I have formed an opinion of your character and no doubt you have of mine.  Some people are just bullies with poor excuses for their behaviour and I cannot change that.  I just have to hope that maybe one day you will realise that it is not nice to scribble over Timmy's picture, vandalise other people's property, kick puppies, and deliberately cause other people upset for 'the lolz'.

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37 minutes ago, Poggy said:

Oh dear, Ugly ... So many words, so little comprehension. :)

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree as I don't think a protracted ethical debate on a forum is going to lead anywhere.  

I think my reasoning and analogy sound, you don't.  Well, I don't have the ability to convince you if your conscience and my posts can't already get through to you.  I have formed an opinion of your character and no doubt you have of mine.  Some people are just bullies with poor excuses for their behaviour and I cannot change that.  I just have to hope that maybe one day you will realise that it is not nice to scribble over Timmy's picture, vandalise other people's property, kick puppies, and deliberately cause other people upset for 'the lolz'.

Its you who failed to understand by bring in a failed community hall situation to try and explain your reasoning. Your situation does not in anyway reflect whats allowed in the game. I realize its not nice, but the role I want to play on the game is being a bad guy. If they made your imagination community hall a game and you want to be the role as timmy thats fine. Understand there are Jeds that will scribble your pictures. Either you stand up for yourself or complain to the people in charge to fix it or call for other players to help. People play gta to cause chaos. Some play crackdown to preserve peace. Red dead gives you the option to do either.  The game allows players to be general population, outlaws (griefers)and deputies (anti griefers). You can choose either one.. its the role you want to play. If it wasn’t intended to be that way then R* would have changed it.

Like I said before if you’re in my way expect to get put down. I am not chasing people around the map. If I happen to be going by the butcher in valentine while you are unloading your kill that you spent over an hour to get.. lol oh well sucks to be you.. if Inam just south of valentine then its your lucky day..

 

Edited by The Ugly
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I am not trying to come on here like some internet thug. I am married with a daughter. I have a respectable job and help in my community. Some people play the game differently than how they live their normal life. I play the game as an outlaw bad guy cause I feel its more of a challenge having  people on the server come after me. I want to be able to draw people into choke points like a draw bridge. Having escape routes. 

Majority of the time when I start the fight and we call it quits. I message the posse telling them that was an awesome fight, they always respond back with a positive message. I took some guys bison at the butcher and sold it. We had a 20 min gun fight. I messaged him and  things were cool. I help provide security for him when he was hunting and going to the butcher right after our gun fight. All this while we weren’t even in a posse and seeing pink dots. 

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10 minutes ago, Poggy said:

The fact you realise it's not nice says it all, really.  You're choosing to be bad, you are choosing to upset other people.  Yes, as you say, you are choosing to bully.  Stop it, get some help :)

 

Its a game. Its the role I play on the game. There is no need for help. You on the other may need help cause you seem to have a hard time separating what is suitable in a real life situation and a game.

Why are you on the game and not out hunting/fishing in real life? Or not chasing after real criminals in real life? Its cause its a game and thats the role you want to play. Does my role cause you and other head aches.. yea.. but thats my role.. don’t like.. maybe try out a different friendlier game 

 

Edited by The Ugly
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And yet you do indeed come across as a thug and a bully, someone who deliberately causes real life loss/negative emotion to others simply for their own enjoyment.  The fact that you cannot see that being a bully is wrong, well ...

Again, we are just going to have to agree to disagree - I know I cannot convince you.  You are what you are.

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24 minutes ago, Poggy said:

And yet you do indeed come across as a thug and a bully, someone who deliberately causes real life loss/negative emotion to others simply for their own enjoyment.  The fact that you cannot see that being a bully is wrong, well ...

Again, we are just going to have to agree to disagree - I know I cannot convince you.  You are what you are.

Real life emotional loss?? Did you lose your house in real life cause I took you deer in a game? Family left ya cause I took your fish?  If something that happened to you in a game is causing emotional state issues and your real life situation to go to crap then maybe you need to seek serious help and stop playing. A game shouldnt be dictating your life. Seriously if thats the case please seek help. I get hunted down by people in the game. After I turn off the game I go to doing my daily business. Its just a game. Its not going to drive me to drinking and losing sleep cause I couldnt do this in a game or someone owned me over and over. Like I said before in many comments. The issue is you can seperate real life and game life.. what happens in the game stays there. What happens at my real job stays there. People have a hard time seperating.. 

Edited by The Ugly
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No one used the word 'serious'.  I have been at pains to point out that the negative impact is minor - look through my posts.  You are now merely using a rhetorical device, creating a hyperbolic strawman, so as to paint your opposition as absurd as a means to justify your own immoral behaviour.

Let me spell it out one more time as clearly as I can, this time presenting my own personal take rather than a more abstract ethical argument that seems to be too easily misunderstood: 

I role play as an outlaw, I treat NPCs very badly, doing things I'd never do irl (maybe, on a good day).  But I don't grief PCs who share the RDO playground with me.  

Why?  

Because I know that it is irritating to have time spent hunting/grinding or a quiet moment fishing or whatever stolen from me by some rando headshotting me whilst I am unable to defend myself.  It's not a major problem, it's not a trauma, but it is a minor irritation.  And many people, as you can see on thread where and elsewhere, also find it an irritation - and for some it's annoying enough to not play in the playground at all.

So, given that I gain nothing, why would I want to affect someone, albeit in a minor way, negatively?  I can RP an outlaw with NPCs, I can test my skills in competitive series matches or missions - what can I possibly gain by deliberately irritating other people?  There can be only one answer, it would be because I enjoy the very fact that I am causing minor distress, and bask in that knowledge.  Their loss and emotional reaction would have to be my source of enjoyment.  And I refuse to be this sadist-lite, this troll, this bully.

I don't want to hurt people, however trivially, for my own enjoyment, and I don't want run the risk of genuinely upsetting someone, perhaps to the point of quitting the game, simply because I enjoy being an ass without repercussion.

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Eh, guess it's just maturity then? It is a PVP game, however, if I or my Posse is up to something that doesn't involve the PVP aspect and a "German 9 year old" comes and kicks out butts, we respond in kind until they quit, or get tired of dying. While we don't dig the impatient, "I am bored" mentality of what seems like so many these days, Rockstar doesn't seem interested in changing that part of their formula anytime soon, so we just "adjust fire."

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well, sense you asked...

i role play the living fxxx out of games, like i choose a role and stick to it. in the case of RDR2 i've kinda always wanted to know what it would be like to be an outlaw running through a town, killing everyone, taking whatever i could and heading for the hills. The role i've chosen to play is bandit. so in my eyes i'm doing nothing wrong. from your perspective i'm a monster sent to ruin your day, well from mine you're just another mark to take out and steal what i can and move on.

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