passive mode

[Kean_1]

45 minutes ago, CPUTestUnit said:

So all I said is, do you´re passiv Play as Long as ever you want, I only wanted to say that you loose some part of the game ellements doing so and if you are happy to loose them as you feel you dont need them, go on, otherwise rething your setting. 

You were saying a lot more than that in your previous posts to be honest.  

[Vaderspupil]

12 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

RDR has the potential to grow into a full fledged western RPG, with reasons to be hunting players Down, or get hunted down by others, ways and methods to raid each other’s camps. Perhaps our persistent posse system can grow into something where rivalries get tracked and the passive/agressive/bounty systems don’t apply when you come across a rival posse member. Maybe the bounty system can grow into something that rewards another player who successfully captures another player with a bounty and successfully gets them to the sheriffs office in one of those cage wagons, all while fighting off the targets posse and rival bounty hunters...

 

They mentioned the concept of professions like bounty hunter coming in the summer update. I'm curious to see what they'll have entailed for that. Will players who choose to be a bounty hunter go after NPC targets or player ones?

[Kean_1]

8 minutes ago, Vaderspupil said:

They mentioned the concept of professions like bounty hunter coming in the summer update. I'm curious to see what they'll have entailed for that. Will players who choose to be a bounty hunter go after NPC targets or player ones?

I'm curious too and kind of excited about those upcoming additions.   

[CPUTestUnit]

41 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

You were saying a lot more than that in your previous posts to be honest.

Correct I argued that taking the PVP off completly from the FR will take some of the games Content so I tried to Show the advantage and it wasnt me (again) who sticked doings to a Kind of attitude or so. so I am a bit wondered you blame this to me. Hence me not being a native english Speaker.

So never ment to offend anyone and actually named my concerns about that some Posts before, I just wanted to Show a different point of view on the matter of PVP/PVE in FR. think thats what such Folders are for.

Thats all.  

Edited May 23, 2019 by CPUTestUnit

[The_Liquor]

All is good. You have your point of view, I have mine, others have theirs. We all type them out and we all make contributions to the thread, wether you think so or not or like it or not.

as for the upcoming paths, I to am eager to see how they shape up. I can honestly get behind the idea of getting bounties payable to another player/posse, or spending a day hunting down a bounty... I do hope however they set it up incorporates both cooperative and adversarial interactions with other players. Then we can be at each other’s throats in a way that makes sense.

[CPUTestUnit]

Thanks and could´nt agree more to the everyone just Spills out his Point of view. Thats good as it builds any discussion. 

I am wondered form day 1 when they announced the Bounty System that they did´nt include Players for the hunt as a Mission (simmilar to assasination) and did not use the oppertunity to educate the others. Means, if I have the Ingame killerattitude I am raised in the Bounty I am worth some and later more Dollars. Now others could see my Bounty at the Sherrifs Office for example and accept a Mission to kill that Player and get each the Bounty he has on his poll from the game not that Player. He could be fined with Honor loss or so. That would give the good and the bad a role and allow the Farmers and hunters to expect the good to defend them against the Killers. So it would build Content and it would also guide Players to a direction  which means more or less PVP for them not the game in total. 

 

[Jackalope_Jill]

2 hours ago, CPUTestUnit said:

So all I said is, do you´re passiv Play as Long as ever you want, I only wanted to say that you loose some part of the game ellements doing so and if you are happy to loose them as you feel you dont need them, go on, otherwise rething your setting. 

 

Woah, hold on! . I don't play on passive, at all. Here's one thing we agree on --I, too, like the sense of a good challenge, so I do not change to defensive because I feel it defeats the Wild West Theme (that's just me). A lot of us aren't getting to triple digit lvls because we were on passive mode --it was just recently implemented. I think the option is there, and rightly so, because it encourages more people into RDO. 

FYI, no worries, btw, I thought we were having a healthy chat, you didn't offend me! 😄

1 hour ago, The_Liquor said:

If I get murdered, I want there to be a reason for it. I want a meaningful incentive to make me think about hunting someone else down. As much fun as an open world fight can be, I don’t want it to become a 24/7 purposeless death match all over the map. I don’t want this to become GTA Old West. Maybe my vision for what this game could be is just different than yours.

 

Very, very good point! I think implementation of consequences for being a magnum dong, and griefing everyone, is a great idea.

There are THOUSANDS of games where PvP is the core of the game, a Wild West game that gives you options to hunt, fish, and possibly farm, shouldn't be on that list. This is why there are separate events, like Showdowns and whatnot. They created such breathtaking sceneries, took a lot of time adding a huge database of animals of all species --surely there's more to this game than just PvP, you know? 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Jackalope_Jill

[Kean_1]

1 hour ago, Jackalope_Jill said:

They created such breathtaking sceneries, took a lot of time adding a huge database of animals of all species --surely there's more to this game than just PvP, you know? 

You're absolutely right. There is a lot more to the RDO game world although some tend to over simplify what "PvE'ers" want as just picking herbs and a hunting simulator. That's a part of it but not what I want at all.  To me, that's just being dismissive and not conducive to an open, honest and constructive discussion on the topic. Nor is the suggestion for folks to go play another game or that their opinion doesn't matter.

Personally, I really liked the campaign and I don't see NPC engagements as brainless encounters. If others do, that's fine but I like clearing gang hideouts, random rescues, ambushes, missions, etc. where you have to battle NPCs. I really enjoy the coop in RDO as that is something that wasn't offered in the campaign.

I also agree with @The_Liquor that I wish conflicts between players in Free Roam made more sense. IMO, it would be more fun that way and perhaps even give me a reason to engage with randoms. These new classes might open the door to something like that. 

I also like the direction R* has taken this game. The new defense and offensive modes give players an opportunity for a little more flexibility in their choice of play style. It's not a "cheat", it's a choice in a "one size fits all" game mode.

Personally, I respect that some don't like these changes but I appreciate them.  ....even with their flaws that I hope will get ironed out as time progresses.

[CPUTestUnit]

Just to get this cleared: all I said is it works like a cheat not that it is a cheat (a big difference).

 

A cheat allows you to short cut and avoid the need to do the necessary like Jumping through a Level form a to b. 

Taking the cheat allows you to finish the Level and go directly to the next one. You use the cheat once on a tricky and verry dificult bit in the Level.

What happens now is you start the next Level but when you get to the next tricky part which is much easier then the one you choosen to take the cheat first you think, wait, I use the cheat again so I avoid the need to learn this jump. 

Given this you continue to use it more often and have finished the game after 30 minutes. 

You will not go back to the first Level to see it all again and to try it without the cheat as you now know the trick for the easy way and therfore loose the will to try harder (which is human nature).

 

So thats exactly what can happen to you if you start with passiv mode. 

You will intend to just use it for the beginning until you can play solid. But as soon as something happens and you get shot the first time while playing offensive you will think, well maybe I try later again and move back to passiv. So you might end up at Level 100 just played passiv (as said thats human).

 

Thats why it works similar to a cheat.

It easys up the challenge and takes away the challenge and that is a double sided coin, thats all I tried to express with that Cheat example.

By the way Money glitches have the same effect for you. The goods loose their attraction and worth as you just can easy glitch them or the Money to get them. So do yourself a favour and stay away from that as you ruin the game for yourself as it takes your challenge off.  

 

Thats just my opinion and I have no issue with anyone prefering passiv (seems like I have to express that again)

Edited May 23, 2019 by CPUTestUnit

[Kean_1]

26 minutes ago, CPUTestUnit said:

Thats just my opinion and I have no issue with anyone prefering passiv (seems like I have to express that again)

You may label Defensive Mode as a cheat, a close comparison or whatever but the truth is that it's simply an option for those who prefer not to be indiscriminately killed by randoms while in Free Roam.  It's not a "passive" option either as you can still be killed by someone willing to face the consequences of doing so which is why they call it "Defensive" mode.  .....but labels are really a moot point here.

Personally, I have no issue with players who choose to use Offensive Mode and/or welcome randoms to engage them in Free Roam but I'm also not trying to tell them how they should enjoy the game (nor do I care).  It doesn't affect me whether someone chooses Defensive or Offensive mode, whether they like skirmishes with other players or simply want to do their own thing and be left alone.  In fact, I'm glad they have more options now to help them enjoy the game as they wish.      

You seem to be suggesting that PvP is an vital part of Free Roam that people should not be without when that's simply not true.  There are a lot of people who would prefer not to engage in conflicts with randoms while in Free Roam and R* obviously agrees.  ....hence the extensive anti-griefing features and new options.

What I don't get is that you say you have no issue with those preferring Defensive Mode yet you keep trying to convince us not to.  If you don't care if folks use it, then why the hard sell that it's the wrong choice to do so?  

Personally, I use Defensive Mode when I just want to be left alone but then again, as @Jackalope_Jill pointed out, folks were avoiding randoms in this game long before these new features were introduced.  I did too.

I still play missions that switch me back Offensive Mode that carry the risk of being attacked by other players.  I just don't always want to deal with them when I'm fishing, hunting or performing some other tasks.  That's just the way I enjoy playing this game.  Others may not share that same opinion and I'm perfectly fine with that. I guess the difference between us is that I simply don't feel the need nor desire to try and convince them otherwise.

 

[HuDawg]

45 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

You may label Defensive Mode as a cheat, a close comparison or whatever but the truth is that it's simply an option for those who prefer not to be indiscriminately killed by randoms while in Free Roam.  

Its kind of like a cheat tho.  It gives players a free aim/punishment bubble.  Sure, playing defensively, its nothing..

But using that against other players to troll or kill them, makes it like a cheat, compared to someone whos not using it.

I don't think this offensive/defensive modes changed anything at all in terms hostile players acting others.  It just gave players more ways to mess with other players.

Funny thing is.  Defensive mode, Its almost like R* is punishing actual free aim player.  "Yes.. you can have free aim, but NO shooting other players"  Or its back to the auto aim gulag for you!

Edited May 24, 2019 by HuDawg

[Kean_1]

11 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Its kind of like a cheat tho.  It gives players a free aim/punishment bubble.  Sure, playing defensively, its nothing..

But using that against other players to troll or kill them, makes it like a cheat, compared to someone whos not using it.

In that sense, sure.   I'll agree with that.  Same with anyone who exploits features or uses glitches in ways to cheat the system / other players.   

 

11 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

I don't think this offensive/defensive modes changed anything at all in terms hostile players acting others.  It just gave players more ways to mess with other players.

Funny thing is.  Defensive mode, Its almost like R* is punishing actual free aim player.  "Yes.. you can have free aim, but NO shooting other players"  Or its back to the auto aim gulag for you!

Again, not seeing it myself but where there's a will there's a way.  For me, Defensive Mode has worked quite well so far as anyone I have encountered so far has essentially ignored me.  ...although someone (I think) did try to shoot at me.  Since I had a full load of pelts and carcasses, I simply rode away and in no hurried fashion either.  They came toward me but veered off.   However, just as I got the butcher I received a posse invite from the player in question and then immediately a blue screen crash (the CE34878-0 error).  .....crap.

[YodaMan 3D]

22 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

Unfortunately, the average griefer seems to confuse being an outlaw with being a murderous psychopath that needs to spend every second of online time killing everything that moves and finding every way possible to keep others from playing the game at all.

That is just it though, Griefers seem to only enjoy the game if they can cause others not to enjoy.  I have had discussions with some who feel for them to have fun.  They not only need to get you leave the server, quit the game, and/or rage for hours in disappointment.  One in particular stated he not only wanted you to quit playing the game permanently.  He also said nothing makes him happier then to come to forums like this and read post about players who got trounced and was so mad that they made a big statement and would leave the game.  He said it made him feel that he was really good at the game when that happened and that is how he rates his gaming skills.  He also told the group that it doesn't bug him when players report him.  He plays using rules provided by the game itself, so they can't ban him.  They have to change the rules.  

Not every griefer is to this extreme and I don't want everyone thinking that every griefer is this guy.  Though to some perspective, many players push the envelope cause gamers have higher expectations and get bored quicker and easier.  They will find ways to entertain themselves when they think the game does not.

[DNMNetTech]

I suppose, if I were a griefer, I would roam the forums looking for people on the edge of quitting and target them just to see if I could push them over the edge. instead, I look for people that seem like they would be fun to ride with. 

[The_Liquor]

Yeah, I know the attitude you’re talking about. Only I don’t see them as following the rules of the game so much. I see it more of an attitude that if it’s not specifically prohibited it’s allowed. These are the guys who can’t win at monopoly by playing properly, so the steal your money when you’re not looking, because well, there’s no rule specifically saying they can’t... It doesn’t make them good at the game. It just makes others want to stop playing with them...

The solution isn’t to put a bunch of rules in the rule book and turn it into a novel trying to cover every contingency that they might come up with. The solution is to stop playing monopoly with that guy. Same with video games. The only way people who grief like this will stop is if they get banned from playing the game. Unfortunately it’s just a lot harder to keep them off the servers than it is to just stop inviting them to your game night. Even if these guys get banned, they’ll just whip up another account and be back.

[Savage_Reaper]

3 hours ago, DNMNetTech said:

I suppose, if I were a griefer, I would roam the forums looking for people on the edge of quitting and target them just to see if I could push them over the edge. instead, I look for people that seem like they would be fun to ride with. 

That is way to much work. Lol. If you are at that level, it might be time to put the controller down and go outside.  

[YodaMan 3D]

7 minutes ago, Savage_Reaper said:

That is way to much work. Lol. If you are at that level, it might be time to put the controller down and go outside.  

As the old saying goes though, "It isn't work if you enjoy what you are doing."  

3 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

Yeah, I know the attitude you’re talking about. Only I don’t see them as following the rules of the game so much. I see it more of an attitude that if it’s not specifically prohibited it’s allowed. These are the guys who can’t win at monopoly by playing properly, so the steal your money when you’re not looking, because well, there’s no rule specifically saying they can’t... It doesn’t make them good at the game. It just makes others want to stop playing with them...

The solution isn’t to put a bunch of rules in the rule book and turn it into a novel trying to cover every contingency that they might come up with. The solution is to stop playing monopoly with that guy. Same with video games. The only way people who grief like this will stop is if they get banned from playing the game. Unfortunately it’s just a lot harder to keep them off the servers than it is to just stop inviting them to your game night. Even if these guys get banned, they’ll just whip up another account and be back.

And often times in the PvEvP debates.  These types of players will tell you if you don't like it, quit or switch servers.

3 hours ago, DNMNetTech said:

I suppose, if I were a griefer, I would roam the forums looking for people on the edge of quitting and target them just to see if I could push them over the edge. instead, I look for people that seem like they would be fun to ride with. 

I agree and seeing how I find myself playing with randoms more and more on these type of games.  I find it harder and harder to find like minded players who just want to play to have fun.  

[DNMNetTech]

I get so wrapped up in the game when I am playing. If I were a dog "SQUIRREL" (runs off chasing and forgot what I was saying)

[Major Dammidge]

17 hours ago, YodaMan 3D said:

Not every griefer is to this extreme and I don't want everyone thinking that every griefer is this guy.  

Which begs two questions:

1. What's his gamertag... I'm sure you know because of the extensive level of the conversation had by you two;  he has violated the rules and any denial is absurd because Rockstar describes griefing as an unacceptable practice when someone's reasonable expectation for normal play is violated by someone else's intent to disrupt that persons recreational time and enjoyment of the game. 

2. Did you report him to Rockstar for disturbing behavior and to Microsoft under the unsportsmanlike reporting mechanism... for, if you did not, how do you propose the game will get better? 

[Netnow66]

 

5 hours ago, Major Dammidge said:

Which begs two questions:

1. What's his gamertag... I'm sure you know because of the extensive level of the conversation had by you two;  he has violated the rules and any denial is absurd because Rockstar describes griefing as an unacceptable practice when someone's reasonable expectation for normal play is violated by someone else's intent to disrupt that persons recreational time and enjoyment of the game. 

2. Did you report him to Rockstar for disturbing behavior and to Microsoft under the unsportsmanlike reporting mechanism... for, if you did not, how do you propose the game will get better? 

It's become pretty apparent to me that Rockstar doesn't care about griefing, at least to the extent that some players do--at least not to the extent that Rockstar said they would in their RDO promotional material. Some players that I know will not come back, some forum board posters still remain absent.

I've submitted videos of griefing after Defensive mode dropped and was told that griefers can attack you and then my responsibility is to press charges--rather than Rockstar making it so these griefers can't attack me in the first place. So I've accepted that's where the game is now.

First thing I do when logging in is go Defensive (and the fact that I have to do that every time I log in also shows Rockstar's attitude). I'm enjoying playing/replaying the missions and hope even more are quickly added. I do still hunt in free roam because I feel the fact that I have a gun in hand scares off some potential griefers. Even I have to admit I get griefed a lot less now with Defensive mode.

But I'll state it here just as I did to Rockstar support and feedback--when I log in to enjoy a peaceful fishing session, I do it in glitched solo/passive lobbies.

[HuDawg]

1 hour ago, Netnow66 said:

 

It's become pretty apparent to me that Rockstar doesn't care about griefing, at least to the extent that some players do--at least not to the extent that Rockstar said they would in their RDO promotional material. Some players that I know will not come back, some forum board posters still remain absent.

Well.. If R* did start acting on every 'griefer' report.   Then the griefers will start using the same system against players.

Really.. Only a private lobbies, friendly lobbies or passive mode would solve your issues with hostile players.   

[Netnow66]

1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

Well.. If R* did start acting on every 'griefer' report.   Then the griefers will start using the same system against players.

Really.. Only a private lobbies, friendly lobbies or passive mode would solve your issues with hostile players.   

I would welcome Rockstar sanctioned private/friendly/passive lobbies but they don't seem to be a priority yet. 

As far as what Rockstar could do, I'd settle for players not being able to shoot/lasso/attack me when I'm in Defensive mode.

It's obvious Rockstar tweaked the game so that normally (while in Defensive mode) a player can resist griefers' bullets to a degree.  Rockstar could have tweaked it up even further if they wished but they seem happy to let players get grief killed and then press charges (which apparently amounts to almost nothing).

Why even allow players to press charges when you could stop them cold if you really wanted to?

I love their game but Rockstar is a joke to me. I've never been so ambivalent about wanting to play a game I want to fail.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Netnow66

[HuDawg]

17 minutes ago, Netnow66 said:

 

I love their game but Rockstar is a joke to me. I've never been so ambivalent about wanting to play a game I want to fail.

The person in charge of RD O really is the problem.  

All my love goes to the actual skilled game devs that brought this game to life, and I doubt the person in charge of RD O had anything to do with anything when it came to actual work.. in creating this game.  

[YodaMan 3D]

10 hours ago, Major Dammidge said:

Which begs two questions:

1. What's his gamertag... I'm sure you know because of the extensive level of the conversation had by you two;  he has violated the rules and any denial is absurd because Rockstar describes griefing as an unacceptable practice when someone's reasonable expectation for normal play is violated by someone else's intent to disrupt that persons recreational time and enjoyment of the game. 

2. Did you report him to Rockstar for disturbing behavior and to Microsoft under the unsportsmanlike reporting mechanism... for, if you did not, how do you propose the game will get better? 

Yes, he has been reported to everyone who should be concerned.  The response I got back was that I needed to provide physical proof.   Seeing how this was through chat, it's hard to provide the proof that they wanted.  

[Netnow66]

"Prove your status as a big game hunter in the new Wild Animal Kills Challenge. Accept an invite to this new Free Roam Event to pit yourself against other sportsmen with weapons and offensive attacks against other players disabled – so the focus of this Free Roam Event is squarely on the hunt."

An example of what Rockstar can do when it wants to.

I love their game (for what it could be), but I really hate Rockstar.

 

[N7Creed]

Just to add my experience to this thread. When I first played RDO (Opening weekend and for a few weeks after) I was griefed so bad I spent the entire time either trying to avoid randoms or being actively chased across the map by griefers. When R* implemented the parley system, it worked for about an hour and then I got chased by two guys on one horse. I'd parley with one only to have his buddy grief me. Parley'd with him and the first one timed out... rinse repeat.

 

So I stopped playing, moved on to several different games and have now finally returned to RDO with the new anti-griefer system in play. When I want to 'be an outlaw' I run in offensive mode. When I want to just get some fishing, hunting or anything done without having to deal with people looking to ruin my playtime, I go into defencive mode. And I haven't really had an issue with griefers since. I get sniped on occasion, but the bullets miss/don't insta-kill me and I just ride away from the vapor trail.  I haven't been hunted across the map like I'm an extra in The Hunger Games. I can actually enjoy the game and it's environ.

 

Humans can be a-holes and defensive mode allows me to avoid that small but active group. This is a good thing in my eyes.

Edited May 29, 2019 by N7Creed

[WhiskeySour]

1 hour ago, N7Creed said:

Just to add my experience to this thread. When I first played RDO (Opening weekend and for a few weeks after) I was griefed so bad I spent the entire time either trying to avoid randoms or being actively chased across the map by griefers. When R* implemented the parley system, it worked for about an hour and then I got chased by two guys on one horse. I'd parley with one only to have his buddy grief me. Parley'd with him and the first one timed out... rinse repeat.

 

So I stopped playing, moved on to several different games and have now finally returned to RDO with the new anti-griefer system in play. When I want to 'be an outlaw' I run in offensive mode. When I want to just get some fishing, hunting or anything done without having to deal with people looking to ruin my playtime, I go into defencive mode. And I haven't really had an issue with griefers since. I get sniped on occasion, but the bullets miss/don't insta-kill me and I just ride away from the vapor trail.  I haven't been hunted across the map like I'm an extra in The Hunger Games. I can actually enjoy the game and it's environ.

 

Humans can be a-holes and defensive mode allows me to avoid that small but active group. This is a good thing in my eyes.

Not exactly the same experience, but felt the same way and stopped playing online about a week before Xmas. Came back after the passive/offensive mode patch and find I can actually enjoy the game. A couple of time someone has walked up to me with a pair of sawed of shotguns and shot my face off. And I do see bullets whizzing by every so often, which is not a big deal. Now I can walk into a town where a posse is killing all the NPC's and go about my business for the most part. A big change from when RDO first came out.

[Kean_1]

2 hours ago, N7Creed said:

Just to add my experience to this thread. When I first played RDO (Opening weekend and for a few weeks after) I was griefed so bad I spent the entire time either trying to avoid randoms or being actively chased across the map by griefers. When R* implemented the parley system, it worked for about an hour and then I got chased by two guys on one horse. I'd parley with one only to have his buddy grief me. Parley'd with him and the first one timed out... rinse repeat.

 

So I stopped playing, moved on to several different games and have now finally returned to RDO with the new anti-griefer system in play. When I want to 'be an outlaw' I run in offensive mode. When I want to just get some fishing, hunting or anything done without having to deal with people looking to ruin my playtime, I go into defencive mode. And I haven't really had an issue with griefers since. I get sniped on occasion, but the bullets miss/don't insta-kill me and I just ride away from the vapor trail.  I haven't been hunted across the map like I'm an extra in The Hunger Games. I can actually enjoy the game and it's environ.

 

Humans can be a-holes and defensive mode allows me to avoid that small but active group. This is a good thing in my eyes.

Can't say I had the same experience you did.  In fact, I hadn't actually had a real problem with griefing prior to any of the anti-griefing measures that were put into place even since the release of the game.  I will say that avoiding randoms was a huge part of mitigating the chances of being trolled along with moving to areas away from populations and just as important, using the app (which was like having eyes in the back of your head).  .....but I did have issues to the point where I quit several gaming sessions due to sheer annoyance.

I do approve and welcome the new features and actually find that they have improved my in-game experience.  I do feel that I have more freedom now to play the game the way I want, when I want.  If I'm hunting, fishing or doing other activities where I don't wish to be bothered, I choose defensive mode.  When I want to join a side mission that can involve other players as adversaries, etc. I choose offensive mode. 

I like the new changes and the direction R* is taking with this game.  

[Ragee503]

I didn't think it was possible to group all player types onto one server but I am quickly changing my mind.  Like others have stated here i have been away for awhile myself and I find the changes so far to be good. I don't feel that I am being hunted all the time so I can stop once in awhile and enjoy my surroundings and the rich world R* has created here.  Yes still get killed once in awhile by some turd but not near as much in past.  

I hope they continue in the direction they are going.

[HuDawg]

5 hours ago, N7Creed said:

Humans can be a-holes and defensive mode allows me to avoid that small but active group. This is a good thing in my eyes.

 Defensive mode does nothing really.

I've murdered defensive mode players just as easy as offensive mode players.  Nothing really changes except the lock on and some pointless kill tax.

Sure.. it helps keep idiots away.  But the idiots where never a problem do deal with, beyond a few cheap shots..  The real killers, the REAL ones, will not be stopped by defensive mode at all.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by HuDawg