My 1st Week Experience in RDR2 Online

[Gameflow]

Hello everyone

 

I just got RDR2 last week and got online to play with some friends; some who just purchased the game, and others who had the game.

Primarily, I took an interest in hunting, it is definitely the highlight of free roam for me. I also enjoyed the stranger encounters and various free roam missions. Online story missions are well built but they can become repetitive after a while.

One thing I noticed early on is the PvP aspect in free roam. All though I always activate Defensive mode in free roam, it seems to have virtually no effect. Its like... free aim, as it doesnt stop anyone online from shooting me, my horse, or any 3 star game on the back of my horse. I am... a bit confused by this concept... of people going in free roam to shoot other players with hardly any reward when they can enter a pvp session and earn money and gold, and plenty of it! To put it short, players that find their fun in getting into shootouts with other players in free roam are overshadowing every other form of fun free roam has to offer. In free roam, Ive been killed soon as I enter a free roam lobby, Ive been gunned down while hunting, trying to sell my game, Ive had my catch stolen from my horse, and more than half the time I enter a town, theres a shootout going on where I get dragged into... all while Im just trying to do some hunting and sell my catch (on defensive mode). The sad part about it is the friends who had the game all tell me "I told you so!" I honestly thought it was gonna be something different from the online experience of gtav. What I mean by that is Rockstar can implement all the game modes and activities in the world in free roam, but the players who find their fun in free roam pvp will always overrule other players experience as they have the means to play their way where other online players do not. With this format, I cant see me investing much of anything in online. I did it in gtav online and in the end it just wasnt worth it as every online mission is interrupted by other players.

On a brighter note: Last Stand is my favorite game mode in PvP! The PvP maps are pretty cool, they picked some nice locations. I also like the showdown series mode. 

Melee combat is crazy but it can use some polishing. Ive had a lot of fun "duking it out" with others. Sometimes I get surprised at some of the unexpected moves that come out, like when using the rope, or the weapon finishers... I gotta admit this is the first game where I strangled another player to death... kind of weird to admit it was fun.

Favorite weapons: The Rope! The things Ive done with this rope, from PvP to free roam are just awesome (I actually pulled an animal I shot, out of a lake)! My duals are the Schofield revolver and the LeMat. Bolt action and Varmint rifle make up for the rest of my loadout. I will switch to the bow when I can craft the proper game arrows.

Thats my experience in online rdr2 this past week. Thank you for reading!

 

 

[lumper]

First let me say Welcome to RDR2O and these boards, lots of very cool people in here.

Your story is like a thousand others, mine included, actually if you poke around and read some of the posts you will see others very similar to your own.

I recently made one summarizing my journey from level 5 to level 100.

The player killing as you have seen doesnt make much sense, sadly it is mostly new players, lower levels, bored or just not quite sure what to do and they cant seem to resist shooting people.

They are often so low level they dont have any ability cards, or decent guns, horse, or camp, lol but meh its no where near as bad as it was 10 weeks ago.

Today with the defensive mode things are a lot better but not perfect.

As you mentioned they get no benefit from killing you or your horse or game, but they just like to bother people, now, you can press charges, and then once they attack you they turn red and you can now shoot them back and not incur a penalty or any bounty or honor adjustment, so that is all kind of new and seems to have really slowed the griefing problems we were having.

Now you can press charges if you are attacked, plus you can then get revenge and it wont hurt your player, or you can parlay and they cant keep doing it, or you can just free roam to another session all together to get away from them.

One tip is when you enter the game do so in the opposite side of the map you plan to play in, so for example, if you want to play near Tumbleweed, then spawn into St Denis or Rhodes, or Somewhere like that,t then free roam or ride your horse to Tumbleweed, doing this will help minimize the number of players near you in Tumbleweed, it works like that anywhere you want to go.

For me hunting and fishing was the primary thing I did to earn cash to buy upgrades and level up.

Your best bet is going to be do all the story missions, they pay really well for new players, but also do your daily challenges every day at least one and you can earn gold and cash and I think xp that way too,do at least one daily challenge every day for a week and you get a gold bonus multiplier, and if you go 14 days it goes up, 21 days and then after 28 days it goes up again, so the more consecutive days you can log in and do at least one daily challenge will be very helpful for you as you level up, and with 1 gold bar for each level you clear right now you can really clean up if you jump in and do all the early stuff, you can easily do 2 levels a session right now and that means 2 gold bars everyday you log in.

Also do the two step verification with Rockstar and they run a promotion for 10 gold bars I think it is, and cash, etc..
also  replay all the story missions after for more xp and gold, you can change your honor to play the remaining story missions as you wont be able to play them all if you have high honor or low honor, you have to be 75% low honor for some, and 75% or better high honor for others and lastly play the pvp modes they dont pay out great unless you win and even then they arent fantastic but they do go fast and they add up quickly, while you are playing you can learn a lot.

If you didnt know, all your guns can be modified and by doing so will make them better, in accuracy, damage, etc.. so that is something you def want to do, even with the carbine and double barrel shotgun as you will use those in "name your weapon" pvp mode, so you want to have the same strength as everyone else.

Anyway, best bet is to level up quickly and right now with gold bar incentives to level up its a great time to be starting.

Fish, hunt, do stranger missions, story missions, daily challenges, anywhere you see smoke, go there and see what the encounter is, etc..

Good luck and you can read up here on the board about many other peoples experiences and problems/solutions as they come up, so definitely check that out too,

Oh, I forgot, 

You said you just recently got the game?

If you havent played the single player game I STRONGLY suggest you forget about the online, and go pay the single player game, there are so many things I could never cover in this post, but it is simply amazing!!

Way way better than Online, I mean 1000% better, seriously the story is great, the acting is good, but there are so many things to find, discover, explore, etc.. it will blow you away if you havent played it,.

I payed it three times all the way through and the final time was amazing because I knew the story and I knew about all the hidden things and the rewards like upgraded satchel, and trinkets and talismans and dino bones, dream catchers, rock carvings, etc.. there is so much to do and see and learn and explore in the single player you definitely should go play that first, play it will tech you a ton of stuff

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by lumper

[Gameflow]

Thank you for the tips, and advice, much appreciated!

The issue I take with PvP in free roam is that its excessive, and I dont have the means to prevent someone from stopping my free roam activity (can you imagine a player trying to kill me while Im fishing and all of a sudden I spawn a fishing rod in their hands and post em by the lake next to me? lol and they cant stop it?).

I understand theres a place for it in this game, in free roam, but its just way too much. At this state, the game gives almost free rain to players who choose to play this way. Pressing charges never stopped anyone from repeatedly trying to kill me, nether has defensive mode. To put it in other words, the Wild West wasnt nearly this wild, lol. There are about a dozen memorable gangs, and most of them are known for only one or two incidents. 

Its funny you mentioned new players being the majority who engage in this play style, I did notice that. I honestly think that if there was a PvP online lobby, a lot of these players wouldnt join it. Im only saying this cause a lot of them quit the lobby after I drop what im doing and shoot it out with them. Im not the best PvP player out there by any means, but the real PvP sessions have taught me a lot. A lot of these players like to target the unexpecting... then again there are town wide shootouts happening in towns I visit. Most of the time its not that chaotic though.

Im not gonna lie, in the beginning I did have my fun with retaliating against free roam players who would kill me for no reason. But after a few days worth of this, after spending a couple of hours in PvP sessions and just wanting to do something different, constantly being shot at, killed and being pulled into shootouts has become a bit annoying. Theres so much more this game offers... its really a shame to allow that experience to be tarnished. Ill never forget, the other day I was by a mountain side as I was hunting (in defensive mode), and came up on this incredible view of the land below, and took a moment to appreciate all the work that has been put in this game.... and guess what? lol got a bolt action round to the back of the head lolol I said to myself "this is just wrong" lol... so I went at it with them for a little while and that was that... anyway

I did the 2 step verification (thank you!). I also noticed a lot of gold coming my way as I rank up, thats cool. Showdown is probably the fastest gold and money ive seen come my way.

I did buy the game about a week ago, so im still learning things. 

The story mode! Yes, a lot of people have been telling me how much better it is than online. I havent played it yet, but I definitely will.. probably this week... and I have a feeling I will forget all about online. Im all for a good campaign game, and as i hear, this is one of a kind.

[HuDawg]

7 hours ago, Gameflow said:

Im not gonna lie, in the beginning I did have my fun with retaliating against free roam players who would kill me for no reason. But after a few days worth of this, after spending a couple of hours in PvP sessions and just wanting to do something different, constantly being shot at, killed and being pulled into shootouts has become a bit annoying. Theres so much more this game offers... its really a shame to allow that experience to be tarnished. Ill never forget, the other day I was by a mountain side as I was hunting (in defensive mode), and came up on this incredible view of the land below, and took a moment to appreciate all the work that has been put in this game.... and guess what? lol got a bolt action round to the back of the head lolol I said to myself "this is just wrong" lol... so I went at it with them for a little while and that was that... anyway

Some players love the 'anything' can happen feel of the game, while others don't.   R* has pretty much been trying to shove all these players into one lobby type.

 So you're going to run into many players who will take shots at you.  Especially if you're a loner..

Defensive mode is pretty useless.  Infact, it could make you a bigger target since players who target you will know that you can't target them with auto aim.  So they can get much more cozier around you before popping you.

Edited June 3, 2019 by HuDawg

[HuDawg]

9 hours ago, lumper said:

As you mentioned they get no benefit from killing you or your horse or game, but they just like to bother people, 

Actually players do get exp rewards for killing players..  And buckle rewards.  

Horses... just cost money.  So anyone killing a horse is either just trolling OR the rider of the horse asked for it.

[N7Creed]

Can someone confirm this? I heard that if a player kills you while you are in defensive mode they loose money?

And also if a defensive player starts to grief you they loose money too? For being an ass in defensive mode?

[Netnow66]

11 hours ago, Gameflow said:

Thank you for the tips, and advice, much appreciated!

The issue I take with PvP in free roam is that its excessive, and I dont have the means to prevent someone from stopping my free roam activity (can you imagine a player trying to kill me while Im fishing and all of a sudden I spawn a fishing rod in their hands and post em by the lake next to me? lol and they cant stop it?).

I understand theres a place for it in this game, in free roam, but its just way too much. At this state, the game gives almost free rain to players who choose to play this way. Pressing charges never stopped anyone from repeatedly trying to kill me, nether has defensive mode. To put it in other words, the Wild West wasnt nearly this wild, lol. There are about a dozen memorable gangs, and most of them are known for only one or two incidents. 

Its funny you mentioned new players being the majority who engage in this play style, I did notice that. I honestly think that if there was a PvP online lobby, a lot of these players wouldnt join it. Im only saying this cause a lot of them quit the lobby after I drop what im doing and shoot it out with them. Im not the best PvP player out there by any means, but the real PvP sessions have taught me a lot. A lot of these players like to target the unexpecting... then again there are town wide shootouts happening in towns I visit. Most of the time its not that chaotic though.

Im not gonna lie, in the beginning I did have my fun with retaliating against free roam players who would kill me for no reason. But after a few days worth of this, after spending a couple of hours in PvP sessions and just wanting to do something different, constantly being shot at, killed and being pulled into shootouts has become a bit annoying. Theres so much more this game offers... its really a shame to allow that experience to be tarnished. Ill never forget, the other day I was by a mountain side as I was hunting (in defensive mode), and came up on this incredible view of the land below, and took a moment to appreciate all the work that has been put in this game.... and guess what? lol got a bolt action round to the back of the head lolol I said to myself "this is just wrong" lol... so I went at it with them for a little while and that was that... anyway

I did the 2 step verification (thank you!). I also noticed a lot of gold coming my way as I rank up, thats cool. Showdown is probably the fastest gold and money ive seen come my way.

I did buy the game about a week ago, so im still learning things. 

The story mode! Yes, a lot of people have been telling me how much better it is than online. I havent played it yet, but I definitely will.. probably this week... and I have a feeling I will forget all about online. Im all for a good campaign game, and as i hear, this is one of a kind.

Keep in mind, the pro griefer players are probably in the majority, but I believe there are enough anti griefer players to make some kind of an impact.

Complain to Rockstar in feedback that you don't like being griefed. Rockstar doesn't consider our being griefed as a bug but that's where I complain to them most now, in their bug report area.

Bottom line, Rockstar wants us to be griefed, at least at this point.

You have to accept that going in. Once you accept that, you determine how or if you want to deal with it. I know some people that have left the game. I know some people who only play in glitched lobbies so the griefers can't touch them. Or you can basically just keep replaying the missions that will keep you out of free roam. Or you could take the advice that some here offer about always running away and changing lobbies.

You'll have to figure out how you want to deal with the environment now that your money has been spent but let Rockstar know if you're not happy with the game they're giving us right now.

 

 

[Darkvicar]

If the pvp element of free roam bothers you now after a week playing online, you probably would have binned the game in BETA. This is a stroll in the park, with no real consequences for death. 

[Gameflow]

2 hours ago, Netnow66 said:

Keep in mind, the pro griefer players are probably in the majority, but I believe there are enough anti griefer players to make some kind of an impact.

Complain to Rockstar in feedback that you don't like being griefed. Rockstar doesn't consider our being griefed as a bug but that's where I complain to them most now, in their bug report area.

Bottom line, Rockstar wants us to be griefed, at least at this point.

You have to accept that going in. Once you accept that, you determine how or if you want to deal with it. I know some people that have left the game. I know some people who only play in glitched lobbies so the griefers can't touch them. Or you can basically just keep replaying the missions that will keep you out of free roam. Or you could take the advice that some here offer about always running away and changing lobbies.

You'll have to figure out how you want to deal with the environment now that your money has been spent but let Rockstar know if you're not happy with the game they're giving us right now.

 

 

I hear you man. I play with the griefers sometimes but not too much, I leave that type of gameplay for PvP sessions. I dont think anti griefers make any difference, they just engage in the type of gameplay the griefers prefer. If I was in the mood for a free roam shootout and some people came after me, thats exactly what I would want, a free roam shootout.

I did send my feedback to rockstar, and I do believe youre right; rockstar wants us to be griefed, at least to a certain extent.

Like I mentioned before, it becomes annoying when its excessive. For example: the other day I was hunting outside blackwater, some bison and some other random game. Soon as I entered blackwater to sell my catch I get killed and they set my horse on fire... Before the hunting I was playing PvP, so I wasnt in the mood to go back to shooting, went back to hunting some more, then I took off for rhodes... got killed on the way there by some random out of left field. Made it to rhodes and there was a shootout going on right by the butcher, left and headed to strawberry. Made it to strawberry, sold whatever I had and got killed leaving the butcher lol. Its pretty much a PvP server atm. If this is what rockstar wants from online theyre catering to a small minority. Im not gonna invest in that, I can enjoy my hunting in story mode. Ill still play PvP though, thats for sure.

[Gameflow]

2 hours ago, Darkvicar said:

If the pvp element of free roam bothers you now after a week playing online, you probably would have binned the game in BETA. This is a stroll in the park, with no real consequences for death. 

Lol bro, Ive heard stories! 

[lumper]

14 hours ago, Gameflow said:

Thank you for the tips, and advice, much appreciated!

The issue I take with PvP in free roam is that its excessive, and I dont have the means to prevent someone from stopping my free roam activity (can you imagine a player trying to kill me while Im fishing and all of a sudden I spawn a fishing rod in their hands and post em by the lake next to me? lol and they cant stop it?).

I understand theres a place for it in this game, in free roam, but its just way too much. At this state, the game gives almost free rain to players who choose to play this way. Pressing charges never stopped anyone from repeatedly trying to kill me, nether has defensive mode. To put it in other words, the Wild West wasnt nearly this wild, lol. There are about a dozen memorable gangs, and most of them are known for only one or two incidents. 

Its funny you mentioned new players being the majority who engage in this play style, I did notice that. I honestly think that if there was a PvP online lobby, a lot of these players wouldnt join it. Im only saying this cause a lot of them quit the lobby after I drop what im doing and shoot it out with them. Im not the best PvP player out there by any means, but the real PvP sessions have taught me a lot. A lot of these players like to target the unexpecting... then again there are town wide shootouts happening in towns I visit. Most of the time its not that chaotic though.

Im not gonna lie, in the beginning I did have my fun with retaliating against free roam players who would kill me for no reason. But after a few days worth of this, after spending a couple of hours in PvP sessions and just wanting to do something different, constantly being shot at, killed and being pulled into shootouts has become a bit annoying. Theres so much more this game offers... its really a shame to allow that experience to be tarnished. Ill never forget, the other day I was by a mountain side as I was hunting (in defensive mode), and came up on this incredible view of the land below, and took a moment to appreciate all the work that has been put in this game.... and guess what? lol got a bolt action round to the back of the head lolol I said to myself "this is just wrong" lol... so I went at it with them for a little while and that was that... anyway

I did the 2 step verification (thank you!). I also noticed a lot of gold coming my way as I rank up, thats cool. Showdown is probably the fastest gold and money ive seen come my way.

I did buy the game about a week ago, so im still learning things. 

The story mode! Yes, a lot of people have been telling me how much better it is than online. I havent played it yet, but I definitely will.. probably this week... and I have a feeling I will forget all about online. Im all for a good campaign game, and as i hear, this is one of a kind.

Nice, sounds like you are off to a great start.

Again, if you just spawn in, ,then fast travel, these issues fade.

I jumped in this morning, I spawned in Tumbleweed, I did a litle hunting, then I fast traveled to Rhodes, grabbed a few things toward daily challenges, then went to Colter, did two stranger missions, and then went to Valentine, did another one and a few other daily challenges, then I went to Emerald ranch area and hunted again for a bit before heading to my camp, oh and I did another stranger missions in there too I forgot about, anyway, I did all that, made 7 gold bars, advanced a level, and got off without ever seeing another player.

I actually did pass a guy at one point, but that was it, so for about 3 hours I crunched out some xp and gold, modified my guns a little more and all that but never was near anyone or had any trouble, as I write this I am now remembering I also did the Hamish and Tammy missions too, ,lol, so I did quite a bit before I left, but no griefing, or player killing.

 

I was fishing once a couple months ago, and a guy came up behind me, tackled me, hog tied me then shot me, lol, so yeah as far as I can tell it used to be a lot worse, and on a daily basis, but these days not so much if you have a plan anyway.

And to reiterate, the single player campaign is ight years ahead of any game I have ever played or many reasons, if you do go play it my advice is this.

Dont rush the chapters, do a mission, then go out and get your trinket (buck antler) as you need it to help with perfect pelts, then hunt and gather for Pearson til you upgrade your satchel to the maximum one, it makes the entire rest of the game better and easier, then roam around, start the geology missions, and the rock carving/time traveller missions, those will keep you buys, also free roam and explore alot, you will find clues for a serial killer, for a vampire, for a time traveler, etc.. so do a mission, go hunting for days then go to camp and spend a day or two at camp and talk to every member of the gang at least once at each time of day, doing this will give you companion requests to do, then as you free roam you will encounter stranger missions and so much more, but definitely go slow, dont rush the chapters or you can miss alot, UFO's, big foot, wolf men, cave men, devil men, gunslingers, I mean dude it goes on and on.

My wife is not a gamer at all, never ever plays them, she watched me play the single player game and fell in love with the characters, she cried at one point and was genuinely touched by the story, so when I tell you it is amazing and you should put the online on hold and go play it, I really mean it.

Some helpful tips:

Get the rdr2 map, it is for your phone or pc, I use a laptop when I play to keep a map open, Its free but you can buy a version that lets you save notes, update things you find and animal/plant locations are all marked, etc.. its a great app, also, get the official app for your phone when online so you can alasy have a map open so you dont have to open yours all the time.
Def upgrade your satchel to the max early on, like chapter 2, it makes a difference, watch you tube videos for help on certain things, and lastly each missions has awards, gold, silver and bronze, the way to get gold often is to hurry up and in some cases that means skipping cutscenes, so I suggest play them once to see what it is about, then replay it for the gold, as you start getting into it, you will have questions, and here on these boards, plus reddit and youtube all are very helpful, oh and the wiki pages are great too for sinlel player.

 

 

[Netnow66]

1 hour ago, Gameflow said:

I hear you man. I play with the griefers sometimes but not too much, I leave that type of gameplay for PvP sessions. I dont think anti griefers make any difference, they just engage in the type of gameplay the griefers prefer. If I was in the mood for a free roam shootout and some people came after me, thats exactly what I would want, a free roam shootout.

I did send my feedback to rockstar, and I do believe youre right; rockstar wants us to be griefed, at least to a certain extent.

Like I mentioned before, it becomes annoying when its excessive. For example: the other day I was hunting outside blackwater, some bison and some other random game. Soon as I entered blackwater to sell my catch I get killed and they set my horse on fire... Before the hunting I was playing PvP, so I wasnt in the mood to go back to shooting, went back to hunting some more, then I took off for rhodes... got killed on the way there by some random out of left field. Made it to rhodes and there was a shootout going on right by the butcher, left and headed to strawberry. Made it to strawberry, sold whatever I had and got killed leaving the butcher lol. Its pretty much a PvP server atm. If this is what rockstar wants from online theyre catering to a small minority. Im not gonna invest in that, I can enjoy my hunting in story mode. Ill still play PvP though, thats for sure.

Yes, I find it to be a bit of a train wreck right now, though it has been much worse in the past.

I find myself playing the missions and different modes when I want to play shoot 'em up but I seek out glitched solo/passive servers when I want to do things in free roam. I guess I'll be content playing that way until Rockstar boots me from their game.

Even with all of that, I still find myself logging in on occasion now. This is a really great game to me--it's just that Rockstar is such a xxxxxx when it comes to the way they present it to us.

Happy trails!!

[Kean_1]

As Lumper mentioned, the official Android / iOS app is really helpful especially since you can still view the map while fishing (you can't see the minimap in the game during this activity).  You can also zoom in and out so it's easier to navigate on the fly, view terrain while on the move, get an exact location of where players are that appear on the edge of your minimap, etc.

Also, when you join a new session, choose a region that is at a least a couple states away from where you want to go.  The game tends to spawn players into areas where most others are.  Traveling away from your spawn point will help reduce the chances of running into others while you fish, hunt, harvest, play side missions, etc.

Posse up.....  There are a lot of good folks in these forums.  Mingle and find a friend, two or a whole group that's willing to let you play with them.  Find the right people and they can help make your experience easier and more fun.  It's always nice to have someone to ride along with that can watch your back and increase your chances of success.  

Remember, Defensive Mode is a tool much like ability cards.  Used right and it can help mitigate the chances of being griefed.  Use it like a passive mode, and you will be sorely disappointed.  Don't put yourself in the position where you can be shot in the back.  When visiting merchants, keep an eye on where players are around you 

Beyond all this, the most important factor IMO/IME to helping make your experience as "grief-free" as possible is through your own choices and actions.  .....your playstyle.  You have to treat all randoms players as potential threats, don't get complacent and try to avoid situations that make you vulnerable.  Don't ride into a town full of players without a plan. Keep an eye on their actions and locations, don;t loiter and get in & out.  ....or simply go elsewhere to sell/buy your goods.   

Personally, I've never really had a huge issue with griefing even during the early days of the beta simply because of the way I play.  .....but much less so after the implementation of the the proximity / hostility changes and now with the new Defensive Mode.

Over time, you can even begin to identify certain patterns and/or behavior to watch out for in randoms that can help you gauge their intent.  ....although that is never a guarantee so again, good situational awareness and caution is always advised.    

I can't speak for others but My friend(s) and I have been having a blast lately with little to no issue with griefers.

[deadairface]

This is the first online game I’ve played and was pretty worried after reading all the horror stories (which were almost all about 6 mos old btw).  But I’ve been playing for a weak and have been pleasantly surprised by the lack of grief.  I don’t even bother with the defensive mode anymore. 

My impression is that by the time most serious players get to level 20 or so, they’ve been griefed enough times that they have no real interest in doing it to others.  I like to hunt and often someone will ride up on me while I’m putting a pelt on my horse and I expect the worst, only to get a thumbs up or a wave from the player.  It’s actually a nice feeling and now I like to do it to others.  I’ll ride up slowly with my shotgun out, of course, and there’s a moment of tension, but it quickly becomes apparent that it’s a friendly encounter rather than hostile.

I think griefers at this point mainly prey on low level players, and also low level players do it because they don’t know what else they’re supposed to do in free roam (gotta shoot something after all).  But once you’ve played enough to get your bearings straight and basic weapons of choice, it’s pretty easy to respawn, get some cover, and take them out.  I find that usually they run off once they see you know how to defend yourself.

 

edit: should add that they prey on morons like me who load the game standing on a street corner in Saint Denis in offensive mode and not paying attention while downloading and trying to sign into the official app.  But at least I came back and blasted their posse leader dead while the guy who shot me and other posse member were cowering behind a building not far away. They then retreated until their red turned back to blue and disappeared. I’ll count that as a win any day.  I definitely was asking for it so I can’t complain.  Lesson learned.

Edited June 4, 2019 by deadairface
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