Red & Blue

[Aval0n]

7 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

It's not useless.  No offense but It would help if you knew how these mechanics function so you can best utilize them to mitigate the issue with griefers:

 

Press Charges: When a lower Hostility player is killed without retaliating they will have an option to “Press Charges” during the respawn period, which will enforce an increase on their attacker’s Hostility and Bounty value. Press Charges is not available if you are a high Hostility player or marked as an enemy to the player who killed you.

This feature will help further increase the player's hostility and bounty while also making them more visible to others.  .....others who then in turn could engage them if they wish to do so.  The function in itself does little to stop the griefing (unless someone is worried about their hostility level making them more visible to others) but gives the victim some level of recourse to help identify abusive players.  

Lastly, don't take it so personal.  Griefers grief because they want you to be upset by their actions.  Don't give them the satisfaction.  I rarely get griefed (and I mean rarely), and most time it's due to my own fault and I see it coming.  .....sometimes it's simply out of curiosity to see what they will do.  The thing is, I don't let it bother me too much.  I use the tools, modes and options available and move on.  

Just because I tolerate the few times I am griefed doesn't mean I like it.  .....but I'm also not making it easy for them by ignoring the options made available to me to help mitigate the problem.  

Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed reply. I genuinely appreciate it. Thanks to you, I now understand parlay and other game mechanics that I didn't understand before.

Let me clarify a couple of things that people have missed or misunderstood about my post. I don't mind if another player kills my character. What I do mind very much is that they kill my horse. It would take far too long and be too personal to explain this, but I don't play RDO for the game. I play it for the horse. So my big question about parlay is this: what happens to your horse while you are in parlay mode? I have two horses and have insurance on both, but it is still genuinely painful to me when they die. Yes, they are just pixels in a computer, but again, there are personal reasons why this matters a great deal to me.

The other thing I wanted to get across is that this game mixes players of all levels without providing any substantive protection -- or maybe the better word is separation -- between new and low-level players, and much higher level players. I don't know where the cutoff should be, but new and low-level players should have the ability to totally opt out of all pvp until they reach a certain level. If they wish to participate, that's fine, but they should be able to opt out. I just got to level 40 tonight, so maybe that's why I think 40 would  be a good level to remove that protection. 40 is when you can get the third passive card. I have two cards at level 3, so now have some reasonable self-protection, plus I now know enough about weapons, food, tonics and how to protect my horse. 

[The_Liquor]

I’m pretty sure your horse can still be killed... that being said, I went through the whole beta phase and I can tell you I’ve died a whole lot more than Red Liquor... I don’t know why your horse getting temporarily killed would bother you so much (I’m sure you have your reasons) but you have to accept the fact that having your horse out puts it in danger.

[Faelwolf]

8 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

It's been brought up before but R* has pointed out that they are really not interested in dividing players like that.  Right, wrong or indifferent, they want RDO to be an all inclusive experience.  Obviously, this will disappoint some who want specific modes like free aim, passive/private/PvE, etc. but it's what they have been driving towards and the reason they've taken the stance they have on griefing.   

If it gets bad, I guess we could just form a "Vigilance Committee" then

[Kean_1]

5 hours ago, Aval0n said:

Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed reply. I genuinely appreciate it. Thanks to you, I now understand parlay and other game mechanics that I didn't understand before.

No problem.

5 hours ago, Aval0n said:

Let me clarify a couple of things that people have missed or misunderstood about my post. I don't mind if another player kills my character. What I do mind very much is that they kill my horse. It would take far too long and be too personal to explain this, but I don't play RDO for the game. I play it for the horse. So my big question about parlay is this: what happens to your horse while you are in parlay mode? I have two horses and have insurance on both, but it is still genuinely painful to me when they die. Yes, they are just pixels in a computer, but again, there are personal reasons why this matters a great deal to me.

I can't say I relate to your situation but I can understand some folks creating real life connections in games I guess.      

As for Parley, I believe your horse is also protected but just as important is the fact that your are spawned away from the immediate area when activated allowing you to escape.  Without it, you will be spawned near the site where you were attacked and still within striking distance of your aggressors.

5 hours ago, Aval0n said:

The other thing I wanted to get across is that this game mixes players of all levels without providing any substantive protection -- or maybe the better word is separation -- between new and low-level players, and much higher level players. I don't know where the cutoff should be, but new and low-level players should have the ability to totally opt out of all pvp until they reach a certain level. If they wish to participate, that's fine, but they should be able to opt out. I just got to level 40 tonight, so maybe that's why I think 40 would  be a good level to remove that protection. 40 is when you can get the third passive card. I have two cards at level 3, so now have some reasonable self-protection, plus I now know enough about weapons, food, tonics and how to protect my horse. 

Personally, I think your too fixated on the level thing.  It really doesn't have that big of an impact on the gameplay IMO / IME.  Sure, weapon selection is a little limited at first but it doesn't take long at all to get a decent rifle and shotgun to help defend yourself.  .....then better weapons as you progress.  ....and more lethal ammo, etc.  

I've been playing since the game released and I wasn't lying when I talked earlier about how little we had in the way of protection from griefers.  However, even back then my encounters with trolls were few and far between.  A lot of that had to do with how I interacted in the game world as I explained.  I saw people back then get frustrated and we even had several big threads about it where some of us shared tips and tricks, suggestions, etc. to help players mitigate the problem.

These days, a lot of the anti-griefing measures have really helped like the proximity blips, Defensive Mode, improved hostility system, the revised parley, penalties, etc.  You have to remember that there is also the option to join a posse with friends or even randoms.  ....not that I think that is necessary because with the anti-griefing features, good situational awareness and some proactive techniques / tactics, folks really shouldn't have that much of a problem.  

....just realize that it can happen but be prepared to move on and don't give the trolls the benefit of your time.  .....unless of course you want to.

[SimonTemplar]

17 hours ago, EjectedCasings said:

I have a split viewpoint on this. I can definitely understand and respect players who wish to be left alone. Problem is, a lot of people want to be left alone. The players who I encounter who don't are typically griefers (although there aren't a lot of those), and sometimes people like me who want to be able to interact with other players. Not necessarily joining their posse or going into VC with them, just sorta sharing a drink or looking at each other's equipment, horses etc. This is a problem though because, as I said earlier, a lot of players want to play alone. So whenever I ride by, emoting them, I get shot out of the assumption that i'm going to whip out my Schofield and murder them. We then get in a firefight as we both believe we've encountered griefers.

I don't think avoiding all players and shooting anyone who does anything other than ride past you is the way to play the game.

Just my 2 cents though.

I'm a random hat tipper, too - I very often get a wave or a thumbs up back, only very occasionally does it turn into hostility and as I'm facing the other guy and ready I can hold my own.  So if you see a smartly turned out gent (blue frock coat, fancy vest, twin pearl-handled LeMats, natty pair of striped trousers - with a curly moustache (think Doc Holliday with a worse barber) give me  wave and I'll reciprocate.  If we're really hitting it off I tend to feed the other player's horse, I love a bit of horse care. 

I was racing around a corner in the middle of nowhere earlier in the week, clattered headlong into another player, racing similarly quickly (s/he didn't appear on my radar until we hit, and I guess I was similarly invisible), unhorsing us both.  My horse was fine but the other player's stayed down, wounded.  Rushed over, revived the horse for them, gave it a pat and a couple of carrots.  I got a thumbs up and a war cry for my trouble.  It was a lovely moment, out there in the bleak wilderness.  So it does happen.

[SimonTemplar]

9 hours ago, Aval0n said:

Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed reply. I genuinely appreciate it. Thanks to you, I now understand parlay and other game mechanics that I didn't understand before.

Let me clarify a couple of things that people have missed or misunderstood about my post. I don't mind if another player kills my character. What I do mind very much is that they kill my horse. It would take far too long and be too personal to explain this, but I don't play RDO for the game. I play it for the horse. So my big question about parlay is this: what happens to your horse while you are in parlay mode? I have two horses and have insurance on both, but it is still genuinely painful to me when they die. Yes, they are just pixels in a computer, but again, there are personal reasons why this matters a great deal to me.

The other thing I wanted to get across is that this game mixes players of all levels without providing any substantive protection -- or maybe the better word is separation -- between new and low-level players, and much higher level players. I don't know where the cutoff should be, but new and low-level players should have the ability to totally opt out of all pvp until they reach a certain level. If they wish to participate, that's fine, but they should be able to opt out. I just got to level 40 tonight, so maybe that's why I think 40 would  be a good level to remove that protection. 40 is when you can get the third passive card. I have two cards at level 3, so now have some reasonable self-protection, plus I now know enough about weapons, food, tonics and how to protect my horse. 

You're not alone finding the horses a key draw to the game.  The animation and intuitive movement is incredible and I really feel a bond with mine (and in real life I'm into old cars not horses).  But also - my kids got me the game for Christmas, three boys and a girl (aged 6, awwh).  I have four horses in the game, one for each of my kids, and I take it incredibly personally if someone messes with them or tries to hurt them.  Messing with me is fine if sometimes upsetting depending on the context, but if someone comes at one of my horses I will pursue them to the gates of hell.  It's minty meat and special ammo all the way.  I have the gunslingers choice card (I think that's it) purely for such horse-attack moments.

(Sorry all, I seem to be leaning towards off-topic posts today.  Apologies.  Trying to provide reassurance to another player that they aren't alone, hopefully there's always space for that.)

[Aval0n]

23 hours ago, SimonTemplar said:

You're not alone finding the horses a key draw to the game.  The animation and intuitive movement is incredible and I really feel a bond with mine (and in real life I'm into old cars not horses).  But also - my kids got me the game for Christmas, three boys and a girl (aged 6, awwh).  I have four horses in the game, one for each of my kids, and I take it incredibly personally if someone messes with them or tries to hurt them.  Messing with me is fine if sometimes upsetting depending on the context, but if someone comes at one of my horses I will pursue them to the gates of hell.  It's minty meat and special ammo all the way.  I have the gunslingers choice card (I think that's it) purely for such horse-attack moments.

(Sorry all, I seem to be leaning towards off-topic posts today.  Apologies.  Trying to provide reassurance to another player that they aren't alone, hopefully there's always space for that.)

@SimonTemplar thanks very much for confirming the draw that the beautifully made RDO horses are for some people. I realize others do not understand this, but it's ok. Your kids understand, and I would rather have their agreement than "wise" adults.

[SimonTemplar]

2 minutes ago, Aval0n said:

@SimonTemplar thanks very much for confirming the draw that the beautifully made RDO horses are for some people. I realize others do not understand this, but it's ok. Your kids understand, and I would rather have their agreement than "wise" adults.

No problem at all!  Kids' instinctive reactions often turn out to be the right ones.  It's just that too many of the rest of us get caught up in the wrong stuff and forget what it's all about.

[zinussan50]

I think red blip include those player doing  camp sale. They change back into blue after delivered the wagon. But, I'm not 100% sure. 

Later I'll do experiment about this🤓

[Freakshow9191]

31 minutes ago, zinussan50 said:

I think red blip include those player doing  camp sale. They change back into blue after delivered the wagon. But, I'm not 100% sure. 

Later I'll do experiment about this🤓

 

Players remain blue until they start "clearing a path" for the wagon.  

Unless they were hostile before the delivery started of course. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Freakshow9191

[zinussan50]

19 hours ago, Freakshow9191 said:

 

Players remain blue until they start "clearing a path" for the wagon.  

Unless they were hostile before the delivery started of course. 

"Clearing path" 😂😂

Yes. Exactly. don't understand what they are thinking. i was fishing alone & suddenly get killed from this group. I respawn & pull out my dynamite arrow & shoot the wagon. 

Then realized they were delivering wagon mission. Well, that is what they get for messing up for no reason. 

[The_Liquor]

9 hours ago, zinussan50 said:

"Clearing path" 😂😂

Yes. Exactly. don't understand what they are thinking. i was fishing alone & suddenly get killed from this group. I respawn & pull out my dynamite arrow & shoot the wagon. 

Then realized they were delivering wagon mission. Well, that is what they get for messing up for no reason. 

Well... to be fair... the nature and f the game tends to lead people to shoot first and ask questions later when doing a mission. In this case, I’m not sure I can blame them for ‘clearing A path’...

[Kean_1]

16 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

Well... to be fair... the nature and f the game tends to lead people to shoot first and ask questions later when doing a mission. In this case, I’m not sure I can blame them for ‘clearing A path’...

Yeah.....  If a player shows up in the path of a delivery, I can't blame them for "clearing the way".   ....especially is they notice someone off to the side remaining still, riding toward them, alongside or behind.  

Personally, I've been the victim myself and didn't blame them for going after me.  I didn't notice what was going on until it was too late and was in their path doing something else.  Probably looked like a potential ambush to them.  

We usually are not that quick to kill people unless they are directly in our path and making a move that seems obvious.  .....but I still don't blame others that do although that's not to say that I won't then go after their delivery if they come after me.   

[Freakshow9191]

Every...single....time...I've restrained and waited to shoot, it's cost us. 

They shoot the horse or the wagon with incendiaries. Automatic $225 loss to the wagons owner.  

So new s.o.p., kill everyone.  And leave someone behind to slow their respawn and pursuit.  Usually means shooting their horse.  Better to lose $4 than $225 or $112 for escorts. 

[The_Liquor]

2 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

Yeah.....  If a player shows up in the path of a delivery, I can't blame them for "clearing the way".   ....especially is they notice someone off to the side remaining still, riding toward them, alongside or behind.  

Personally, I've been the victim myself and didn't blame them for going after me.  I didn't notice what was going on until it was too late and was in their path doing something else.  Probably looked like a potential ambush to them.  

We usually are not that quick to kill people unless they are directly in our path and making a move that seems obvious.  .....but I still don't blame others that do although that's not to say that I won't then go after their delivery if they come after me.   

By all means, go after the wagon if you feel up to it. That’s part of the multiplayer fun... as long as it all ends when the mission ends anyway.

1 hour ago, Freakshow9191 said:

Every...single....time...I've restrained and waited to shoot, it's cost us. 

They shoot the horse or the wagon with incendiaries. Automatic $225 loss to the wagons owner.  

So new s.o.p., kill everyone.  And leave someone behind to slow their respawn and pursuit.  Usually means shooting their horse.  Better to lose $4 than $225 or $112 for escorts. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. You try to give someone the chance only to pass by and see the message ‘shot by a bolt action rifle’....

[lumper]

I have to say, I havent been griefed, really griefed, since long before the Summer update, and the last time a random shot at me, it lasted all of two seconds, I just kept riding, and that was it.
I really dont see any of these aggressive players anymore.

When I go into a town and see a few red blips, and x's all over the ground, I use my mic, say, excuse me fella's just passing by, and if they shoot at me, I go faster lol but I dont hang around and look for trouble.

Nobody has chased me, or really attacked though in a long long time.

I carry a very heavy defensive tank build so unless you hit me with dynamite you aren't going to do anything to me anyway, which is exactly why I use that  build, it shows me who is shooting, and gives me a chance to get away.

If I can get away I go, if I Cant, then I fight, but honestly it hasnt happened in so long I cant even remember the last time that it did happen.

I dont tip toe around players either, if they are blue, I just ignore them and go where I am going and do whatever I am doing, I use my mic and talk to people in my proximity, I would say around 50% of them talk back and say something nice, the other half dont say anything, most of them do what I am doing, just mind their business and we just respect eachother.

I am glad the way it is now, I really dont worry about anyone in the map,  but should some outlaw attack, Im ready.

Edited November 19, 2019 by lumper

[The_Liquor]

Me too... I think it started dying off around the time proximity blips became a thing. I’ve been shot once or twice since the summer update, and chased and lassoed once (I think the latter was because someone wanted the cougar off my horse, which is OK in my book. Only they should have shot me, as I was able to put them both down with my LeMatte shotgun round and make it to camp).

the other times I’ve been shot at/shot dead I happened to wander right into the middle of some kind of shootout. I wasn’t chased or harassed beyond the initial incident.

[Kean_1]

To be honest, I never thought griefing was as bad as some made it out to be in the beginning.  .....IF you followed the advice many of us were gladly providing, using the app, etc.  

.....but yeah, even much less so now especially given the options and restrictions / punishments R* has levied against trolls.  IMO, there are far less excuses to be griefed but again, folks still need to use some common sense, situational awareness, some basic tactics and the tools made available by R* to help mitigate the problem.  

[The_Liquor]

Personally, I have yet to even turn on defensive mode. I frequently run long deliveries solo. I act like a drunken eccentric ass when I’m in populated towns. I wander i to people’s camps, help myself to beer and stretch out by the fire while they’re there without a word of explanation. I don’t go out of my way to avoid anyone, whatever colour their dot is. Despite going out of my to NOT take measures to avoid problems, I very rarely get shot at. It’s been like this ever since the proximity blip update. Before that, it was much more common,  it still far from what I’d call a problem. Just the odd roaming group of clowns chasing down the nearest blip and griefing.

[SimonTemplar]

I agree with a lot of this, but if a guy fishing find himself being executed by a passing wagon train (as happened earlier on this page) I do personally think they should take a look (at more than a stationary blip on a radar) and think 'he just happens to be here, and is obviously engaged in an activity, let's leave him be'.

[The_Liquor]

3 minutes ago, SimonTemplar said:

I agree with a lot of this, but if a guy fishing find himself being executed by a passing wagon train (as happened earlier on this page) I do personally think they should take a look (at more than a stationary blip on a radar) and think 'he just happens to be here, and is obviously engaged in an activity, let's leave him be'.

Maybe so... But also as mentioned before, People have been known to use the ‘I’m just standing here minding my own business’ ploy only to shoot you in the back of the head as you pass...

[SimonTemplar]

2 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

Maybe so... But also as mentioned before, People have been known to use the ‘I’m just standing here minding my own business’ ploy only to shoot you in the back of the head as you pass...

If they're holding a fishing rod and the wet end is in the water, I'm going to give them a pass.  If they're standing there lurking for no obvious reason, then they might be dying of lead poisoning.

[Kean_1]

2 hours ago, SimonTemplar said:

If they're holding a fishing rod and the wet end is in the water, I'm going to give them a pass.  If they're standing there lurking for no obvious reason, then they might be dying of lead poisoning.

I probably wouldn't because of what @The_Liquor said about people being sneaky but for me, it depend on how close they were to us, etc.

I will say that I always found it stupid that you didn't have the radar available while fishing.  Back when the app still worked for blips, I would use that instead.  

[The_Liquor]

Yeah... I see absolutely no reason not to have a radar while fishing... but it is what it is, so if you happen to be fishing too close to a Ford while a wagon delivery rolls through, you’ll likely be shot.

Edited November 21, 2019 by The_Liquor

[SimonTemplar]

18 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

I probably wouldn't because of what @The_Liquor said about people being sneaky but for me, it depend on how close they were to us, etc.

I will say that I always found it stupid that you didn't have the radar available while fishing.  Back when the app still worked for blips, I would use that instead.  

This is at risk of becoming circular, but in my view obviously I'd think it entirely unreasonable if I'm actively fishing and some random passing player shoots me in case I decide to mess with him.  If the player fishing is there first, they are either relaxing or working on a challenge and having to come out of the moment constantly to look around, pack up and move just because someone is also choosing to drive their wagon past (in the wagon hunting/defending thread there is mention made of taking cross country routes to avoid choke points and other players) that spot seems pretty unreasonable to me.  If I am fishing and am on the receiving end of that I will make it my mission to shoot those responsible and prevent their delivery.  Preemptive strikes a la the Tripoli bombings in the 1980s have their place in the game - sadly - but for me that is too far.  It's the wagon coming close to the fisherman, not the other way around, so you're close to them.  Random attacks don't have to happen (they really don't in Elite Dangerous), and if there's a line then someone clearly engaged in a pre-existing activity is the other side of it,  imho.

Anyway, we don't agree but I was surprised to hear your line on that one.

 

Aim a gun, don't shoot, relax once you're past.  A pointed gun is used to exercise control in Westerns (and in life), it can be a game thing too!  Nicer than random executions which exacerbate the problem, or even create one where there was none.

Edited November 21, 2019 by SimonTemplar

[Freakshow9191]

All I can say Simon is, even though you have no radar while fishing, you can still hear all the noise associated with a wagon run coming close by. The wagon, all the "yaaa's" coming from several riders, the crack of the whip. And will likely drop your fishing pole to see what's up. 

Plus, as a defender, I'm not spending a whole lot of time, researching the blip standing there. Can't afford to sit and wait, and study.  Just stay at full gallop, take em out, keep moving. 

I make several deliveries a night, Everytime we run into a problem is when we played defense, not offense. 

We don't stay and harass, we're on the move. the worst we do is cause a respawn. 99% are gonna keep moving, racing to the finish. Usually before the shot, we're saying to ourselves "sorry, pal, nothing personal".  I brought a guy we shot near his camp a cougar I had on the back of my horse once as an apology after the run. 

[The_Liquor]

@SimonTemplar I understand what your getting at. I just also understand why you might be shot, or the whole ‘clear a path’ mentality. And as I’ve said before, if you feel like going after the wagon, knock yourself out. I also personally agree it’s usually not a good idea to bring your wagon close to others... but Some of the river crossings leave you little choice while in a wagon...

As for merely pointing your gun, there are many who take that as just as much invitation to come attack you as getting shot.  But it is a delivery mission you can try to stop, so by all means, go and stop it if you want, even if you had no intentions to... and as @Freakshow9191 just mentioned, people are just charging through while doing these runs... they’re of likely to look too closely into you. Lead rider likely just shoots you so the wagon can pass without risking an attack, and maybe someone drops back a little to make a buffer incase you respawn and try to come after them.... but chances are they’ll be long gone by the time you go back to your fishing spot.

[CosmoKramer]

@Freakshow9191 Don't have a problem with what you say at all and if I'm going fishing I'll usually do it where I won't have my back to a road. Only thing I would say from the other side of the fence is that whenever I put my fishing rod away in the game it seems to take an absolute fricking age to do, like hanging stuff off the horse, so plenty of time for you to react if the fisherman so much as flinches as you pass.

[Freakshow9191]

22 minutes ago, CosmoKramer said:

@Freakshow9191 it seems to take an absolute fricking age to do, 

If you select a weapon you don't get the fishing rod breakdown animation. 

And if they're in first person they can do the instant 180 turn. 

So within 1-2 seconds they can go from fishing to turned and shooting. 

Believe me I get it, people don't like getting shot while minding their business.  But to think a posse racing to the finish should hang around, wait, and study the situation, trying to imagine what this player may or may not do is unreasonable. 

And yes we fully expect there to be a high likelihood of a pursuit after we take that shot.  But we're ready for it at that point and have put some distance on them, and made a plan. Usually involves putting their horse down. We're just trying to get away and keep moving. 

Everyone should also take into account how many times traders have been burned by someone "minding their own business"  there's a very good reason for the distrust. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Freakshow9191

[SimonTemplar]

1 hour ago, Freakshow9191 said:

All I can say Simon is, even though you have no radar while fishing, you can still hear all the noise associated with a wagon run coming close by. The wagon, all the "yaaa's" coming from several riders, the crack of the whip. And will likely drop your fishing pole to see what's up. 

Plus, as a defender, I'm not spending a whole lot of time, researching the blip standing there. Can't afford to sit and wait, and study.  Just stay at full gallop, take em out, keep moving. 

I make several deliveries a night, Everytime we run into a problem is when we played defense, not offense. 

We don't stay and harass, we're on the move. the worst we do is cause a respawn. 99% are gonna keep moving, racing to the finish. Usually before the shot, we're saying to ourselves "sorry, pal, nothing personal".  I brought a guy we shot near his camp a cougar I had on the back of my horse once as an apology after the run. 

 

23 minutes ago, Freakshow9191 said:

If you select a weapon you don't get the fishing rod breakdown animation. 

And if they're in first person they can do the instant 180 turn. 

So within 1-2 seconds they can go from fishing to turned and shooting. 

Believe me I get it, people don't like getting shot while minding their business.  But to think a posse racing to the finish should hang around, wait, and study the situation, trying to imagine what this player may or may not do is unreasonable. 

And yes we fully expect there to be a high likelihood of a pursuit after we take that shot.  But we're ready for it at that point and have put some distance on them, and made a plan. Usually involves putting their horse down. We're just trying to get away and keep moving. 

Everyone should also take into account how many times traders have been burned by someone "minding their own business"  there's a very good reason for the distrust. 

None of that makes you the good guy.  You do have time to check, you just choose not to bother because it is easier to shoot someone.  If you're running several deliveries a night then you're rich, so there simply isn't that level of urgency.  You are simply choosing to play in that slightly unpleasant way.  Which is fine, that's your choice, but call it what it is.  You accuse me of holding an 'unreasonable' position, yet all I am doing is fishing, not on crossing points, minding my own business.  You're the one choosing to shoot me on the way through.  Your compass has been recalibrated as only an online gaming compass can be.

Thinking that 'sorry pal, nothing personal' cuts it when you are the aggressor, while dressing it up as defence, necessary, and all you can do within the (self-imposed, arbitrary) time constraints is just hot air aimed at masking the simplicity of it:  you can't be bothered caring about others' enjoyment, you just want to take the most direct route to your own pleasure that is available, and will shoot anyone who has the temerity not get out of your way.  Which, again, is a valid (if unpleasant) viewpoint, but let's call it what it is.  You don't hold some moral high ground, some defensible imperative which make this shooting of random fishers your only, regrettable option.  You are the woes of early 21st Century society in one distant goods run.  And a walking reminder of why I tend to leave discussion fora for anything other than work, eventually, as the insights are depressing. 

I think I will leave this thread here.