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[Big Thread] Arthur's second love interest, who was it? Will it ever be revealed?


Zoroy
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So I can't find discussion for this anywhere and I've been curious after I read the Vulture article where Dan Houser briefly mentions it, but doesn't say who;

"The acting for Red Dead Redemption 2’s story mode is now complete, but as release day approaches, five hours of the 65-hour game are dumped. At one point, protagonist Arthur Morgan had two love interests, but “we decided one of them didn’t work,” says Dan. And whole missions were removed because “they were never going to work technically or be quite slick enough, or they felt superfluous. We removed a mission on a train where you had to deal with bounty hunters, because it was fun at first, but then it wasn’t. This part of the process is always about compromise and horse trading. Everyone always loses bits of the game they love.”

 

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So from that quote he mentions Arthur had whole missions with a second love interest and 5 hours of content got dumped. His quote is unclear, I'm assuming he meant Arthur had a second love interest, and on top of that, they cut additional content worth of 5-hours unrelated to his second love interest? Or, he's saying the 5-hours are regarding the second love interest?

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There are several who could've been his love interest, and this is my personal take and reasoning on why it's possible or not possible:

- Mary-Beth.. 21-year old gang member who seems to have a schoolgirl crush on Arthur. Assumed to be love interest because her dance scene. I do not think it was Mary Beth considering Mary Beth already has a romantic plot with Kieran who is the same age as her, and similar personality. The confession scenes are not unique, they are shared with Tilly and Karen and the dance scene isn't unique either, as Arthur can dance with Karen. Arthur is also 36. That's a big gap. Don't think Rockstar would've paired her with Arthur as it'd be easy considering she isn't a widow, and or, had a boyfriend. Mary Beth also ditches the gang without saying goodbye to Arthur. You'd think if she loved Arthur she would've never high tailed it without saying bye. She seems unaffected in the EP as well. 

- Charlotte. A newly widow, Arthur meets her just when her husband died. She's a normal city girl who knows nothing about nature and she's got money. Age is unknown but by the EP her hair is all grey and she looks as old as Hosea, so possibly older? Personally I do not think there was ever a romantic plot with Arthur. Charlotte and him only knew each other for 3-days. He's coughing up blood and can barely walk. 3-days of knowing someone isn't love. Especially when he's ill. She also won't move out of Annesburg because of her husband (if he had lived, no way could he live in Annesburg with her, he needs a hot climate.) I don't know what you could do with 5 hours of content with Charlotte, hunting rabbits for 5 hours and him falling for Charlotte in 3-days? Sounds like Beauty and the T.B instead of beast to me. I think Charlotte just like Hamish was an optional side mission for his redemption. It'd be contradictory for Arthur to be with her too because she'd end up killed like Eliza. He has PTSD and turns down Mary Linton because of his dangerous lifestyle, if he gets involved with Charlotte she's a target. Charlotte doesn't know he kills people either. She's a basic city girl he isn't into the city. 

- Mary Linton. She's excluded from this narrative. She's 1/2 for the love interests. Clearly part of a love triangle.

- Eliza. Arthur's hookup women who had Arthur's son. She was 19 when Arthur and her met. Only a one night stand that gone wrong. Since she's a one night stand, I don't think there was "love" between them. This would mean Arthur was in his early or mid 20's. There isn't any model or indication she exists in game, or a VA for Eliza, so I don't think she was ever a second love interest. Her story would never fit in the plot, and since it happened years ago it sounds like Eliza and Issac have been dead for more than a decade.

- Sadie... Newly widow, been a widow for a total of 6 months, married for 3-years. A widow like Charlotte and Mary Linton. Closest person to Arthur for some reason despite zero relationship development and her transition to gunslinger as good as John, Micah and Arthur happens instantly. Maybe cut content (?)

 

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Personally (just my opinion), I think out of all of them... Sadie was Arthur's cut love interest considering they become so close out of the blue without any valid explanation. If you have low-honor, Sadie recalls Arthur as her best friend, if you have high-honor, Sadie says "he's the best man she's ever known" aside from her Jake. The high-honor dialog has completely different wordplay. If Sadie was intended to be platonic, Wouldn't Rockar make the high-honor dialog her calling him a best friend? Instead they leave the window open with her putting him on the same wavelength as Jake (which is weird to say considering Arthur kills people, Jake doesn't. Jake was honorable, Arthur is dishonourable but Sadie puts them on the same WL despite only knowing Arthur for a few months, that's a huge thing to say.)

I also noticed Arthur writes about Sadie in his journal several times, and has probably the most missions with Sadie. One of the journal entries he calls Sadie a fine woman and admires her right after his Rhodes trip with her. He doesn't call anyone else fine or show attraction to any of the other characters besides Sadie and Mary, so why write she's a "fine woman" and him showing attraction if Rockstar also intended her to be platonic only?

Then you have the last chapters. Sadie is the only character out of 23 characters to ask about Arthur's health, she is the only character that refuses to let him do things. Even Charles makes him do things when he can barely walk and accept that he's dying telling him he's should be happy he's dying the way he is. She doesn't (and is shown she's scared of him dying.) She won't let him go get Abigail because he's ill, despite knowing he's capable of handling it in his state she won't let him. The only character who is taking care of him. She doesn't even let him row the boat and calls him "honey" - which isn't ever said by Sadie, so it wasn't out of courtesy/typical southern talk. 

During an optional mission, I think it's optional, if you help Rainfall's, Sadie helps Arthur without him asking. Proving she's only loyal to Arthur and doesn't care about the gang. Near the ending of the RF mission when Arthur wants to take EF's home, Charles says he'll come, weirdly the camera focuses on Sadie and she loudly says, "And so will I!" Arthur won't let her come though so she quietly whispers, "be safe, Arthur" - even though Charles is him. This scene is a big eyebrow raiser to me. Cause it's just sonout of place. I also noticed a theme where the camera will keep focusing on Sadie while the other characters won't pay attention with her watching Arthur. 

- There is a recurring theme where Arthur keeps getting abandoned or left to die by his gang. Sadie sees this many times, and she repeats the line more than once, "you and me is all we need" which is purposely done right when his gang of 20 years abandon him. Sounds love interest route to me.

- Arthur reacts differently when anything happens to Sadie compared to anyone else. See Tilly and Jack as examples. He also doesn't like Sadie smoking but doesn't care if anyone else smokes. 

- She's the only female character close to his age. 

- Hosea's beginning foreshadowing.

- Weirdly her R* official bio says she's hellbent on getting revenge for her husband but "loyal to those she loves" ... Her loyalty is shown to only Arthur in the end, not the gang. She was always loyal to Arthur only. Proof would be Chapter 5-6.

- I believe just like Mary Linton, only Sadie and Mary have optional missions where you help them or don't and if you do there is a reveal. So, possible love triangle set up thus the optional mechanic choice? 

- There is several shots of Sadie and Arthur in Heartlands, Sadie in her early ch. 2 outfit riding with Arthur and, Charles. There is another shot with her and Arthur riding in Heartlands alone that doesn't happen, and another one with her and Arthur and Bill in the Cornfields. Her HQ yellow shirt photo is taken the Saint Denis saloon upstairs where she doesn't go. Early game teaser showed her in a bandana riding with the gang. There is also a bit they seemed to cut with Hosea telling a story in ch.2 with Sadie in her ch.6 outfit when Sean was alive. So either this is all scrapped content, or just basic random art promo shots. No idea. 

So that's my personal theory, I think it was Sadie but it was cut because they decided to kill him off and it wouldn't work because he has T.B and it'd be superfluous / technically won't work because her husband had just died so they scrapped it. It'd only work if Arthur never was going to die unless NA was going to be a last min alternative ending considering he has Bonnie ranch dialog. 

If we think about it, Arthur doesn't really have a love interest. Seems like Mary Linton was kept because it works with the T.B angle since they were doomed from the start and never was going to happen, just a dream.

 

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TL;DR:

* Who you think was the cut love interest?

* Will PC cracked files reveal it, or do you think Rockstar will ever reveal who themselves?

* Do you think Dan Houser saying he had two love interests was just an idea at one point but nothing came from it. Completely unrelated to Charlotte, Sadie, M.B but an entire new character or do you think it's a character from current game who they intended him to be with? 

Edited by Zoroy
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As Arthur’s second or even first love interest have no further impact on the first RDR and the canonical events, I had hoped for some freedom of choice when playing. When I play as Arthur I feel that it would have been natural for him to get some companionship, and I mean emotionally as well as sexually. So I do believe that we should have got the option to try to be sweet on whomever we wanted in the camp, it would have made for an even better story. 

 

But to answer the question at hand, I am certain Sadie was the intended second love interest even if I personally would have preferred Mary-Beth or Tilly as they are more interesting as characters and less of a stereotype.

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1 minute ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

I would have chosen Lenny.

I have no objection to that, more freedom makes the story better and I have nothing against a homosexual or bisexual protagonist so why not!? 

 

The point is that even though not very important, a more interactive love story would have made a great game even greater. And no, I do not request an animated sex scene upon completion of the romance but I am not against it neither. 

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10 minutes ago, Minimoni said:

And no, I do not request an animated sex scene upon completion of the romance but I am not against it neither. 

i like them left out personally,  gives your imagination room to work.  Unless it's an utterly boring, way to long game like Witcher 3, then yeah put them in for something entertaining in the game.

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What's weird to me is how they wrote her official bio "Hellbent on getting revenge, loyal to those she loves." I don't think I added that to my own thread unless I did, can't remember but it makes it even more obvious.

She has no loyalty to the gang, as she doesn't follow Dutch which is shown in Chapter 5-6 and she only rides with Arthur and chose to follow him. Was going to ride with him when he rescued Eagle Flies but he won't let her and the camera weirdly focuses on her. She waits for Arthur's word. 

Like even the bio is a dead giveaway. She isn't loyal to John either, she only came by because she wanted revenge for Arthur. Wouldn't visit him, his family or Charles and Uncle. 

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What about Abigail?

I only ask because in RDR, rumors was the girls in Dutch' s gang was prostitutes and their was questions about if John was Jack's father.  There was one point where Abigail feels it very important that Arthur spends time with Jack.  Shortly there after it points out how John and Abigail had been on a break for a bit.  

I only bring this up cause in the end when you are playing as John, I just happen to notice the similarities between Arthur and John.  I also noticed that it seems very important to John to be a lot like Arthur.  

Then again, to a certain point my thoughts was that Arthur seems kinder to the ladies at camp.  Especially Ms. Grimshaw, so to a point all seemed to kind a little bit of a shine to Arthur.  Sadie most likely, but it could have been anyone.  Including Charlotte, cause for only a few missions.  Seemed like she had a shine for the old man too. 

Edited by YodaMan 3D
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1 hour ago, Minimoni said:

I have no objection to that, more freedom makes the story better and I have nothing against a homosexual or bisexual protagonist so why not!? 

 

The point is that even though not very important, a more interactive love story would have made a great game even greater. And no, I do not request an animated sex scene upon completion of the romance but I am not against it neither. 

Honestly if were being realistic, him having an affair with Lenny is more realistic then him not having a love interest in general. Living in the wilderness on the run, no phones but a big group, like your bound to fall for somebody. Literally everyone in camp has a love interest besides Tilly. Which I find funny.

As a female player, I'm a sucker for anything romantic. Even if it's cheesy. I was so grossed out by Arthur and Mary's relationship though, but it's understandable considering he's ill and therefore no way could he ever love anyone considering as months fly by and relationship development happens one another, he's dying.

I truly think it was all cut cause his T.B cause it's impossible to love anyone with a disease. And it wouldn't make sense considering the ending. 

 

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3 minutes ago, YodaMan 3D said:

What about Abigail?

I only ask because in RDR, rumors was the girls in Dutch' s gang was prostitutes and their was questions about if John was Jack's father.  There was one point where Abigail feels it very important that Arthur spends time with Jack.  Shortly there after it points out how John and Abigail had been on a break for a bit.  

I only bring this up cause in the end when you are playing as John, I just happen to notice the similarities between Arthur and John.  I also noticed that it seems very important to John to be a lot like Arthur.  

I left out Abigail because she's only in love with John. It's implied she must've hooked up with Arthur after his split with Eliza during her prositute days but she fell for John.

His journal entry gets mixed up a lot too. 

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2 minutes ago, Zoroy said:

Honestly if were being realistic, him having an affair with Lenny is more realistic then him not having a love interest in general. Living in the wilderness on the run, no phones but a big group, like your bound to fall for somebody. Literally everyone in camp has a love interest besides Tilly. Which I find funny.

As a female player, I'm a sucker for anything romantic. Even if it's cheesy. I was so grossed out by Arthur and Mary's relationship though, but it's understandable considering he's ill and therefore no way could he ever love anyone considering as months fly by and relationship development happens one another, he's dying.

I truly think it was all cut cause his T.B cause it's impossible to love anyone with a disease. And it wouldn't make sense considering the ending. 

 

Not true.  It isn't easy, but I have known people who have fallen in love.  With one of them knowing they would die soon enough.  My mother dated a gent who had cancer when they met.   They dated for over a year knowing that tomorrow may never come.  

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3 minutes ago, YodaMan 3D said:

Not true.  It isn't easy, but I have known people who have fallen in love.  With one of them knowing they would die soon enough.  My mother dated a gent who had cancer when they met.   They dated for over a year knowing that tomorrow may never come.  

No I know, but if they ended up with one another, her chances of getting T.B are raised. It also would be tough cause if she fell for Arthur, then she'd be losing two people she loved in a span of 6 months. If he lived in the EP then it 100% would work.

But even then, T.B spreading to someone else is tough unless they wrote it off saying he survived and recovered.

i think that was their issue. I have a theory maybe New Austin was a last minute alternative ending? 

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9 minutes ago, Zoroy said:

No I know, but if they ended up with one another, her chances of getting T.B are raised. It also would be tough cause if she fell for Arthur, then she'd be losing two people she loved in a span of 6 months. If he lived in the EP then it 100% would work.

But even then, T.B spreading to someone else is tough unless they wrote it off saying he survived and recovered.

i think that was their issue. I have a theory maybe New Austin was a last minute alternative ending? 

He was around all of the members at one point or another during the whole story.  Anyone of them could have contracted, but didn't.  He only got for beating up the guy who gave it to him.  We are talking story vs real life.  They could have gave it to anyone.

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1 hour ago, YodaMan 3D said:

Not true.  It isn't easy, but I have known people who have fallen in love.  With one of them knowing they would die soon enough.  My mother dated a gent who had cancer when they met.   They dated for over a year knowing that tomorrow may never come.  

My wife knew I had MS she married me and she knew and still knows that my health can change rapidly. I have had many complications because of the MS but I am happy to be alive with my wife and two children. It is not the same as Arthur’s case in the game but people that are sick, even dying loves too. And stress, danger and warlike circumstances actually makes people having more sex and not less. So I still believe the story would have benefited from having a cheesy alternative love story. 

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1 hour ago, Zoroy said:

No I know, but if they ended up with one another, her chances of getting T.B are raised. It also would be tough cause if she fell for Arthur, then she'd be losing two people she loved in a span of 6 months. If he lived in the EP then it 100% would work.

But even then, T.B spreading to someone else is tough unless they wrote it off saying he survived and recovered.

i think that was their issue. I have a theory maybe New Austin was a last minute alternative ending? 

TB was pandemic back then. More or less everyone had it but they never or very late in life got the symptoms of the disease. And the TB in the game is not really handled in a realistic way as Arthur get symptoms and... way too fast. So if R* wanted to have more alternatives in the story but with the same outcome, it would not have been difficult to do so. 

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2 hours ago, Minimoni said:

TB was pandemic back then. More or less everyone had it but they never or very late in life got the symptoms of the disease. And the TB in the game is not really handled in a realistic way as Arthur get symptoms and... way too fast. So if R* wanted to have more alternatives in the story but with the same outcome, it would not have been difficult to do so. 

They should've ran with the cheesy love story I'm still mad. 😭

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I dont know if I could have handled another 5 hrs. of game play. After chapter 5, I pretty much knew which way things were heading and got tired of doing things that I had done 5 times before. I just wanted to find a certain person and jam shorty up his butt. It may have been that r* felt they had to make a cut because the story was starting to drag. How many times can a person listen to Dutch and not think, "ya know, I think its past time to dust this a$$hole". Maybe they felt it was time to make a cut and that was the best way to do it. You can only tug on the heart strings so many times before people numb up and lose interest in the story. Since Arthur already had a love interest in Mary, why bother? Arthur was no spring chicken. He wasn't a 17 year old love struck kid. Why add more stress to his life? If you played "honorable" Arthur was already a friggen saint. A man that appreciated the arts, communed with nature, helped the poor and downtrodden, loved his horse and would have built an orphanage for the poor children of St. Denis with just one more train robbery. Give the poor guy a break.

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2 hours ago, buttlint said:

I dont know if I could have handled another 5 hrs. of game play. After chapter 5, I pretty much knew which way things were heading and got tired of doing things that I had done 5 times before. I just wanted to find a certain person and jam shorty up his butt. It may have been that r* felt they had to make a cut because the story was starting to drag. How many times can a person listen to Dutch and not think, "ya know, I think its past time to dust this a$$hole". Maybe they felt it was time to make a cut and that was the best way to do it. You can only tug on the heart strings so many times before people numb up and lose interest in the story. Since Arthur already had a love interest in Mary, why bother? Arthur was no spring chicken. He wasn't a 17 year old love struck kid. Why add more stress to his life? If you played "honorable" Arthur was already a friggen saint. A man that appreciated the arts, communed with nature, helped the poor and downtrodden, loved his horse and would have built an orphanage for the poor children of St. Denis with just one more train robbery. Give the poor guy a break.

The love interest storyline and especially a second one would not be obligatory, so one as you would not need to play them. Even the little of love story or interaction we already have is entirely possible to skip. 

 

The complaint that the game is too long is not a really good point, just do not play the extras and focus on the story and you will miss tens of hours of fun. So I hope no one ever forced you to play the stranger quests and whatever!? 

 

A game like RDR2 with its great open world will never be less great by putting more optional “quests” and other activities in them. So an optional secondary cheesy love story would only have made the game even better, and I already love the game as it is awesome. 

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11 hours ago, Minimoni said:

The complaint that the game is too long is not a really good point, just do not play the extras and focus on the story and you will miss tens of hours of fun. So I hope no one ever forced you to play the stranger quests and whatever!? 

But when you are playing the game for the first time and you dont know what the results will be of your actions, you kind of need to play the stranger quests. I love the game and didnt want to just blow thru it and miss anything. The games length isnt a real problem for me. Its just that another 5 hrs, before Chapter 6, seems like it would have not helped the story. A game like Fallout gets so big that one can forget that there is any real story to it. It turns into clearing the map and building tunnels. And I dont hate the Fallout series. I think that RD strongest attraction is its solid story line. Its more about the story than it is about the sandbox. It is a balanced blend of the two. Again, when you are playing a game for the first run thru you dont have the benefit of hindsight. You just try to do what you think the game wants you to do. Its the story tellers job to tell the story and the editors job to make sure it doesnt go off of the rails with details. Dont get things so convoluted with side quests as to loose the flow of the story for the sake of extending game play. You can extend game play with epilogues, add ons or a new game.

But.....this is what keeps gamers gaming and forums foruming. if this game was a flop nobody would give two hoots who Mary was. In 7 years a bunch of people will be discussing Jacks relationship with Emma, the little flapper girl from Blackwater. Nobody will clearly remember the minutia from RD1 or RD2 but everyone will remember the story of Arthur Morgan. I love this game because I think the game is almost perfect just the way it is. Not one thing less or one thing more. But that, is just one mans opinion.🙂

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16 minutes ago, buttlint said:

But when you are playing the game for the first time and you dont know what the results will be of your actions, you kind of need to play the stranger quests. I love the game and didnt want to just blow thru it and miss anything. The games length isnt a real problem for me. Its just that another 5 hrs, before Chapter 6, seems like it would have not helped the story. A game like Fallout gets so big that one can forget that there is any real story to it. It turns into clearing the map and building tunnels. And I dont hate the Fallout series. I think that RD strongest attraction is its solid story line. Its more about the story than it is about the sandbox. It is a balanced blend of the two. Again, when you are playing a game for the first run thru you dont have the benefit of hindsight. You just try to do what you think the game wants you to do. Its the story tellers job to tell the story and the editors job to make sure it doesnt go off of the rails with details. Dont get things so convoluted with side quests as to loose the flow of the story for the sake of extending game play. You can extend game play with epilogues, add ons or a new game.

But.....this is what keeps gamers gaming and forums foruming. if this game was a flop nobody would give two hoots who Mary was. In 7 years a bunch of people will be discussing Jacks relationship with Emma, the little flapper girl from Blackwater. Nobody will clearly remember the minutia from RD1 or RD2 but everyone will remember the story of Arthur Morgan. I love this game because I think the game is almost perfect just the way it is. Not one thing less or one thing more. But that, is just one mans opinion.🙂

Well said, even if I differ on some already mentioned opinions. 🙂 

 

To me the story was great, but the open world roaming was to me the best part. So even if we have different opinions on what part of the game is better or less good than the other, we still agree that we got entertainment for our $€£.

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21 minutes ago, Minimoni said:

To me the story was great, but the open world roaming was to me the best part. So even if we have different opinions on what part of the game is better or less good than the other, we still agree that we got entertainment for our $€£.

I have been married to the same woman for 48 years.

If I ask her what the weather is like her answer will be: "It's........(20 minutes later)....... and we need to take the dog to the vet."

If she asks me the same question my answer is: "75 degrees."

I am a "lets get to the point" kinda guy.....and she is not.🙂

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On 1/9/2019 at 12:42 PM, buttlint said:

I have been married to the same woman for 48 years.

If I ask her what the weather is like her answer will be: "It's........(20 minutes later)....... and we need to take the dog to the vet."

If she asks me the same question my answer is: "75 degrees."

I am a "lets get to the point" kinda guy.....and she is not.🙂

My brother's wife is like this. She is a really down to earth gal but when you ask her a question, she goes into great detail to respond. I am a listener myself so I don't mind but when you ask me a question, I tend to use the least amount of words possible. I give a more detailed response online than I do in person. 

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You really have experienced true marriage till you played the old, "What do you want for dinner" game.  You ask your wife what would she like for dinner.  She'll say I don't care.  You make a suggestion and she'll respond with she doesn't want that.  Then you point out she must care then.  She'll be like I don't care, till you suggest something else.  You can play this game all night.  Then if someone ask what you had for dinner, she'll be like "nothing, he couldn't decide on what he wanted."

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