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Why HDR implementation is such a big thing?


JohnConnor
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Well, imagine you bought a PS4 Pro and have a 4K monitor.  Given one of the major selling points of the Pro is the ability to render applicable games in 4K, wouldn't you think that it would matter if a title (also making that promise) didn't deliver?  ....now throw in the fact that some consider this one of the most important games of 2018 (if not of recent years) and you should get the gist of why some folks are upset.

I don't have a 4K TV and quite frankly, I never saw a reason to buy another console when my original PS4 works just fine and I'm not going to replace my 60" 1080P TV for a 4K just for gaming.  By the next gen I will likely have a 4K TV and the new consoles will probably support it out of the box, so then it will be a different story .....but I can also understand why those with the current Pro systems and equipment to support it are upset.  I would be too if I were in the same boat. 

I guess one could question why is it such a big deal for you to create this thread since you are not affected?  .....and yes, with the proper equipment, it does make a difference for those that can tell.

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39 minutes ago, ALetterFromAbrahamLincoln said:

4k is quite an improvement over 1080p. I'm sure people said the same thing when 1080 vs 720 was happening. 

Color TV used to be considered a gimmick. Hell, TV itself used to be considered a gimmick -- I mean we already have radios, so what's the point?

I'm old enough to remember when electric toothbrushes were first invented, and I remember thinking what a stupid idea it was, just for lazy people. 

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Considering the human eye cannot see in 4K, and not many people have a 4K TV if things aren't optimised correctly it will look worse than the SDR. And if you've shelled out all that extra money for the tiny boost it gives you I'd imagine you'd be quite annoyed to actually receive an inferior product. It's nitpicking really though, I agree. And it serves people right for paying through the nose for unnecessary tech just to have "the best" to show off about.

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1 hour ago, PZA1982 said:

Considering the human eye cannot see in 4K, and not many people have a 4K TV if things aren't optimised correctly it will look worse than the SDR. And if you've shelled out all that extra money for the tiny boost it gives you I'd imagine you'd be quite annoyed to actually receive an inferior product. It's nitpicking really though, I agree. And it serves people right for paying through the nose for unnecessary tech just to have "the best" to show off about.

Not to be contrarian, but the human eye can absolutely tell the difference between 1080p and 4K:

1435998009385243206.png

My eyesight is very, very good (not bragging, it's just a fact).  I play on a 60" 4K set that's about five feet in front of me, and the difference between 1080p and 4K in video is glaring.

I understand that a lot of people (like my wife) don't see the difference between standard def and 720p or from 720 to 1080.  That's fine, but my wife also refuses to wear her glasses unless we're going to the movies.  For her, the difference is indistinguishable without her glasses, and I would suspect that people with eye issues are going to have that problem regardless.

 

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I remember the old debate about refresh rates on computer CRTs and what the human eye could perceive.  ....."Yer wastin' your money " (some people say as I can clearly perceive the ficker).

.....hogwash.  I could tell the difference back then and I can tell the difference now.  

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Whoa there nelly, I had to create an account just to respond to all the misinformation in this thread. 

No offense, but even the guy trying to be balanced says: 

"....and yes, with the proper equipment, it does make a difference for those that can tell."

What what in the what? "for those that can tell"? You mean human beings with a heartbeat, ears and eyes? 

How about this, can you tell the difference between a 10-watt laptop speaker and a 1000w surround system?

Look around the net, video reviewers have been saying for years that HDR is the real next-gen tech in A/V. The general consensus is that 4k = yawn, but HDR = WOWIE ZOWIE. This isn't a new opinion, hate to sound like a jaded A/V snob, but this discussion is like 2-3 years old. 

The dynamics of the image are insane with HDR, compared to the "normal SDR". It's literally like going from a HIGHLY compressed MP3 file at 64kbps to a FLAC running at 1411kbps. The sound quality is completely different. 

If you've ever thought that 4k was anything to be excited about, HDR should excite you more, it creates a more immediate and discernable impact on your visual cortex.

With 4k most people have to ask "is this 4k?" but HDR speaks for itself. When you see it you'll know. The content is hard to find, but it's the most impressive technological leap in video the industry has seen since the invention of the colour TV. This is the first time in over 50 years that we're actually getting more colours, more luminance, the picture looks more like reality looks when you peek your head outside your door, and far more realistic than a resolution bump could ever provide. 

Oh, and they don't sell 1080p TVs anymore, they haven't for years. To act like there's almost no one who has a 4k HDR tv is nonsense. Basically all TVs sold in the last 2 years except for the lowest-spec ones have at least some form of HDR implementation. It's been a staple on mid-range and high-end TVs for 3-4 years. It's not new. And yeah, if you recently bought a new-ish TV with 4k and HDR, then the biggest game of the console cycle promised HDR, then just decided to lie and %100 fake it, you'd be pissed too. They might as well have claimed it was 4k and only run at 1080p, then ask "what's the big deal" and wonder why people are upset. 

TL;DR It's not nitpicking, it's a big deal.  

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Welcome to 2016

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/12/high-dynamic-range-explained-theres-a-reason-to-finally-get-a-new-tv/

It is impossible to convey the HDR difference on an SDR screen, because HDR's boosts require compatible panels. This mock-up simulates some of the effect by reducing color gamut on one side, but one of the big differences is that HDR screens don't have to add an unnatural glow around a bright point to make it look "bright." Instead, in HDR, something like the sun here has its brightness contained solely within its radius; the natural brightness of the display, and contrast with other pixels right next to it, creates a natural glow effect.

 

 

Arshdr-tv-compare-list.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

I remember the old debate about refresh rates on computer CRTs and what the human eye could perceive.  ....."Yer wastin' your money " (some people say as I can clearly perceive the ficker).

.....hogwash.  I could tell the difference back then and I can tell the difference now.  

Yeah, kinda a different comparison you're making. People who can see strobing at high refresh rates are genuinely rare in the population. 

HDR is talking about a 10x boost in nits (actual brightness)

It's like asking if most of the population can tell which is brighter: an indoor lightbulb, or the sun. This is not a technology that's relegated to the fringe, it's pretty mainstream, as anyone who isn't blind who occasionally goes outside and you know, doesn't only look at SDR screens, well they can tell the difference the moment they go outside. It's part of the reason that "screens" always look like "screens" to us. Most people never realize it, but the capability to simulate the colour and luminance range of real life has just been sorely lacking on colour displays for 50+ years. Now it's changed, it'll probably be the biggest advent in tech for the next 50 years too, especially as we push the nits and bitrate higher and higher. 

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Kean_1 are you trying to refer to your first post in this thread? Because that whole post was straight-faced. Are you trying to act like it was perfect sarcasm? What about it was sarcastic exactly? Am I missing something?

"I don't have a 4K TV and quite frankly, I never saw a reason to buy another console when my original PS4 works just fine and I'm not going to replace my 60" 1080P TV for a 4K just for gaming.  By the next gen I will likely have a 4K TV and the new consoles will probably support it out of the box, so then it will be a different story .....but I can also understand why those with the current Pro systems and equipment to support it are upset.  I would be too if I were in the same boat. " - Kean_1

AHAHAHAHA PERFECT SARCASM

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8 minutes ago, SirParcival said:

Kean_1 are you trying to refer to your first post in this thread? Because that whole post was straight-faced. Are you trying to act like it was perfect sarcasm? What about it was sarcastic exactly? Am I missing something?

"I don't have a 4K TV and quite frankly, I never saw a reason to buy another console when my original PS4 works just fine and I'm not going to replace my 60" 1080P TV for a 4K just for gaming.  By the next gen I will likely have a 4K TV and the new consoles will probably support it out of the box, so then it will be a different story .....but I can also understand why those with the current Pro systems and equipment to support it are upset.  I would be too if I were in the same boat. " - Kean_1

AHAHAHAHA PERFECT SARCASM

What are you on about?  I meant the remark you dissected in your diatribe where yes, I was using sarcasm:   "....and yes, with the proper equipment, it does make a difference for those that can tell."  

Oh, and hey, welcome to the forums by the way.    

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Lol yeah, thanks for the welcome. 

I'm still confused about your sarcasm, as like I said, that entire post you're referencing was straight-faced. And then to imply that the comment in question was actually highly-perfected sarcasm... ionno dude, I don't see it.

Just sounds like you're adding to the confusion around this topic even being worth anyone caring about *shrug*

But perhaps you're just working on some level that I can't distinguish without a sarcasm microscope, a level of perfection so pristine that infact you're the only one who knew you were being sarcastic. I think you've achieved sarcasm nirvana. 

See what I did there?

"....and yes, with the proper equipment, it does make a difference for those that can tell."  Has zero sarcasm in it. You even went on to compare HDR against CRT monitors, a tech that actually does have a small population that "can tell". You're confusing the issue, and further muddying the waters at time when people obviously need some clarity. The fact that we're even having this discussion is very worrying.  

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No, i'm far too stupid to have caught that. It's obvious to me that you're the king of sarcasm, I shant duel with you any longer. 

I'd rather be slaying actual demons haunting this topic, ones that could use some illumination. CRANK UP THE NITS ON THIS ISSUE PEOPLE! The PS4 blurry thread has a billion views. They are organizing, reporting, tweeting, and rallying. The HDR issue on the otherhand apparently you have to fight tooth and nail just to get 5 people to even care that it's an issue. 

Like I've said elsewhere, if they promised 4k, and only delivered 1080p with no explanation, and no option to change, you'd be pretty upset. This is like that but actually more impactful. So you know, might wanna keep your eye on the ball here. 

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30 minutes ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

Do you smell that?  Smells like a class-action lawsuit to me....

LOL yeah, good luck getting gamers that organized with this obvious false advertising re: HDR. You can't even get people to agree that it's something that we should care about. 

Which is hilarious, because if you google: "RDR2 HDR" there has been a dozen articles in all the major publications (forbes did a great job) shedding light on this issue, and how ridiculous it is. 

But then you come here and talk to the actual gamers... and they can't agree that being sold something that's missing a key selling feature with zero explanation is even bad, or worth worrying about. "Don't you worry your pretty little head sweetness. Nobody gives a sh*t bout your problems." Rockstar is just laughing because they're in zero danger. Laughing all the way to the bank baby! 

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HDR is a massive deal.

And even if it wasn't, Rockstar sold us a game with the promise of HDR support.

Technically, the game does not have any kind of HDR implementation whatsoever. This means that Rockstar LIED to consumers. 

That right there is a BIG DEAL!

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  • 4 weeks later...

 

On 11/1/2018 at 6:23 AM, Dubya75 said:

HDR is a massive deal.

And even if it wasn't, Rockstar sold us a game with the promise of HDR support.

Technically, the game does not have any kind of HDR implementation whatsoever. This means that Rockstar LIED to consumers. 

That right there is a BIG DEAL!

THANK YOU! At least there are a few people who realize that this is unacceptable and yes, false advertising and lying from Rockstar.  There's no way they didn't know what they were doing when they released this game.  Their silence since the news broke supports that.  The way that many idiots have reacted is why I hate "gamers" so much.  The defense of Rockstar and the whole "hdr is fine on my tv, stop complaining and just accept things, derp" is just the type of fanboy mentality I'm talking about.  These people are incredibly immature and are everywhere! I think it's one of the reasons company's are allowed to get away with so damn much bad business practices.

If you've been reading comments than you've probably seen this too many times.  People sticking to their ignorance even after Digital Foundry and Hdtv Test.com wrote excellent articles explaining and proving the HDR issue.

I saw someone in this thread say that while he doesn't care about hdr since he doesnt have a 4k tv or a Pro, that he can at least understand why people are upset.  It's crazy that mature thinking peoole like you are ...non existant among gamers!

Anyway, they're probably never fixing it as they've ignored it this long.  It's clear the engine is too old for hdr or they just didnt build it with hdr in mind.  Also, with most gamers not caring it will never cause them enough of a problem.  Still, i suggest emailing a complaint to Rockstar support.   They deserve to be called out. (end rant)

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On 10/31/2018 at 1:04 PM, PZA1982 said:

Considering the human eye cannot see in 4K, and not many people have a 4K TV if things aren't optimised correctly it will look worse than the SDR. And if you've shelled out all that extra money for the tiny boost it gives you I'd imagine you'd be quite annoyed to actually receive an inferior product. It's nitpicking really though, I agree. And it serves people right for paying through the nose for unnecessary tech just to have "the best" to show off about.

What're you talking about, just PS4 Pro???   I had bought a Xbox One X because my Xbox One decided to crap out.  I had to upgrade my TV due to the one I had slowly becoming hard to see due to black splotches affecting it.  Initially I didn't have HDR setup right so I played RDR2 without it.  It looked great, by man, by the time I did figure out how to setup both the TV and Xbox with HRD, it was simply amazing.  You have to see it to believe it.  I don't know how you can say people can't see 4K, but I can certainly see the difference 4K and HDR provide.

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6 minutes ago, Force58 said:

Initially I didn't have HDR setup right so I played RDR2 without it.

I just made the upgrade last week (to the xbox one x) and couldn't tell the difference. Then I realized yesterday that I have to actually change a few settings for things to work correctly. That's my project for tonight...

Hopefully adjusting the settings will make it better. I was really disappointed that it looked the exact same...

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12 hours ago, Truth said:

I just made the upgrade last week (to the xbox one x) and couldn't tell the difference. Then I realized yesterday that I have to actually change a few settings for things to work correctly. That's my project for tonight...

Hopefully adjusting the settings will make it better. I was really disappointed that it looked the exact same...

What I've noticed is that the HDR on RDR2 definitely makes a difference in terms of brightness, but it certainly does not with regards to contrast and color.

One game that properly does HDR is Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey.

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On 10/31/2018 at 2:26 PM, BropolloCreed79 said:

Not to be contrarian, but the human eye can absolutely tell the difference between 1080p and 4K:

1435998009385243206.png

My eyesight is very, very good (not bragging, it's just a fact).  I play on a 60" 4K set that's about five feet in front of me, and the difference between 1080p and 4K in video is glaring.

I understand that a lot of people (like my wife) don't see the difference between standard def and 720p or from 720 to 1080.  That's fine, but my wife also refuses to wear her glasses unless we're going to the movies.  For her, the difference is indistinguishable without her glasses, and I would suspect that people with eye issues are going to have that problem regardless.

 

I don't get it with the people who can't tell there's a difference, unless its like you said above.  My initial issue was I didn't realize I had to "turn on" HDR on my 4K LG I recently bought.  All my ports had to be turned on, cable, Xbox, etc. or I wasn't getting an HDR input.  The difference is staggering to my eyes, both for RDR2 and AC: Odyssey.

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On 11/30/2018 at 11:43 AM, Truth said:

I just made the upgrade last week (to the xbox one x) and couldn't tell the difference. Then I realized yesterday that I have to actually change a few settings for things to work correctly. That's my project for tonight...

Hopefully adjusting the settings will make it better. I was really disappointed that it looked the exact same...

It makes a HUGE difference once I turned on HDR for all my 4K LG inputs.  I'm surprised the LG TV didn't do that on its own sensing the input but I guess they're not as smart as I thought they were.

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On 11/30/2018 at 4:33 PM, Force58 said:

What're you talking about, just PS4 Pro???   I had bought a Xbox One X because my Xbox One decided to crap out.  I had to upgrade my TV due to the one I had slowly becoming hard to see due to black splotches affecting it.  Initially I didn't have HDR setup right so I played RDR2 without it.  It looked great, by man, by the time I did figure out how to setup both the TV and Xbox with HRD, it was simply amazing.  You have to see it to believe it.  I don't know how you can say people can't see 4K, but I can certainly see the difference 4K and HDR provide.

You are either blind of delusional. Because HDR is broken. It literally and technically DOES NOT WORK. Digital Foundry proved this by measuring the color range.

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7 hours ago, Dubya75 said:

You are either blind of delusional. Because HDR is broken. It literally and technically DOES NOT WORK. Digital Foundry proved this by measuring the color range.

Well, I'm neither blind nor delusional.  My eyes can see a huge difference in HDR before and after I turned it on.  Everything was improved, colors, shading, the difference was staggering.  Digital Foundry doesn't have my eye perspective and I could give a crap about a color chart prepped by a PC.  Everyone sees things differently.  I compared with no HDR and with and for me it was a major upgrade.

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6 minutes ago, Force58 said:

Well, I'm neither blind nor delusional.  My eyes can see a huge difference in HDR before and after I turned it on.  Everything was improved, colors, shading, the difference was staggering.  Digital Foundry doesn't have my eye perspective and I could give a crap about a color chart prepped by a PC.  Everyone sees things differently.  I compared with no HDR and with and for me it was a major upgrade.

So basically you are saying HDR is some kind of mystical thing which can't be measured but has to be perceived??? REALLY? 

Don't trust a color profile prepped by a computer? You do realize that the games you are playing (even RDR2) is COMPUTER- generated and that every pixel is a computer generated unit accounted for and can therefore be measured with absolute mathematical precision? 

HDR constitutes mathematical calculation and rendering of color. By definition, HDR is an expansion of color range, which can be measured with absolute mathematical accuracy and precision. Digital Foundry measured this and found that it is not in fact, accurate HDR. Because in order for a range of color to be HDR, it needs to have a certain mathematically accurate color range. It is absolutely measurable. It is not a matter of perception, but of absolute mathematical accuracy.

Everyone sees things differently, but 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4 no matter how you try to "see" something else.

You are unfortunately completely ignorant of the fact and on top of that completely delusional. Not a good combination.

 

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8 hours ago, Dubya75 said:

You are either blind of delusional. Because HDR is broken. It literally and technically DOES NOT WORK. Digital Foundry proved this by measuring the color range.

17 minutes ago, Force58 said:

My eyes can see a huge difference in HDR before and after I turned it on.

I got everything setup, and I can definitely see the difference. I can't say that it's displaying in 4k hdr like it says it should, but it definitely looks better than it did before I set it up. I simply don't have much to compare it with. Maybe I'll try it on AC origins at some point. That's probably the only other game I would expect to look "enhanced".

Edit:

2 minutes ago, Dubya75 said:

You are unfortunately completely ignorant of the fact and on top of that completely delusional. Not a good combination.

There's no need for that man... Some of us just don't have all that much experience with this fancy technology.

Edited by Truth
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5 minutes ago, Truth said:

I got everything setup, and I can definitely see the difference. I can't say that it's displaying in 4k hdr like it says it should, but it definitely looks better than it did before I set it up. I simply don't have much to compare it with. Maybe I'll try it on AC origins at some point. That's probably the only other game I would expect to look "enhanced".

Of course there is a difference between having HDR turned on or off in RDR2. But the big problem is that HDR turned ON looks like garbage. It is NOT what HDR is supposed to look like. Not even close!

Run God Of War, and toggle HDR on and off. Then you will understand what HDR should look like.

Edited by Dubya75
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