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Self defense not allowed?


digger54
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4 minutes ago, digger54 said:

I'm being robbed and then shot at.  I shoot back in self defense and kill the robber.  Someone sees me do it and reports me to the law and now there is a bounty on me for murder?  WTF?  

Rockstar logic.

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Did they try to steal your horse?  Try whistling next time instead of shooting him off.

Having said that, I've done the same thing with spectators and no consequence but it may be a matter of perspective.

What's missing is the player's day in court on some of these encounters.  I get that what someone sees is what they see but their should have been a system for the player to discuss his situation using the existing dialogue mechanic.  ......a reduction in bounty could result or dismissal.

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I don't know, seems kinda random sometimes. Earlier today I got in two self defense situations with other people nearby and nothing happened. 

The first one some douchebag picked a fight with me in the streets of Valentine. I was trying to beat him without actually killing him but accidently went too far, as soon as I saw him fall down and the x popped up on the minimap I was like damnit! But then no crime was reported and nothing happened even with all the Valentine people in the streets. I didn't loot the body, and just walked away.

 

The second time was when going through a covered bridge and being robbed at the other end, shot all three dead and within seconds, before I even had a chance to loot the bodies, some guy rode past and nothing. No crime or witness. 

I've gotten in the habit of putting on the bandana immediately after stuff like that happens out in the wilderness, that way if someone rides by while you're still looting all the bodies, you won't be immediately identified and you don't have to go chasing after any witness, all you gotta do is be gone by the time the law shows up to investigate

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Just now, MJROu812 said:

Putting on the bandana, gives a small advantage of not being seen, that's what I do too? But sometimes I think the bandana glitches out on me and doesn't work properly?

I think the game glitches out on a lot of players and doesn't work properly, imho.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:18 PM, YodaMan 3D said:

I think the game glitches out on a lot of players and doesn't work properly, imho.

I think this could perhaps be the problem as well. I've had self defense situations end with no repercussions, assault, and murder. I just bumped into a guy in the street, he pulled his gun out, I then pulled mine out, let him shoot me, then shot him back...… Murder Charge. I mean come on..... This is the wild west where stealing a cow was almost a 100% chance of swinging. Not to mention, the right to a trial by jury granted in the United States Constitution (for the self-proclaimed lawyers who claim the wild west didn't have self-defense laws. Its called common sense law... lol) 

I cant even go to San Denise without accidently getting a bounty, which always turns into a fire fight ending a $300 plus bounty. And I mean Almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. I swear I only step in that town if required. When john says he hates that town in the epilogue I 100% feel him. Never in my life have I hated a town in a video game so much. I HATE SAN DENISE!!!!!! 

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......*Saint Denis.

On 11/1/2018 at 12:18 PM, YodaMan 3D said:

I think the game glitches out on a lot of players and doesn't work properly, imho.

I think it's also fair to acknowledge that some players are simply overstating their experience though as a few of the explanations I've heard have clearly show they are takking a hamfisted approach to the game.  I'm not saying that is necessarily true for all who have complained about the bounty mechanic but I also believe that at least a portion of those players are a victim of their own actions.  .....in other words, the game is working as designed in those cases but it's simply a matter of either not understanding or not wanting to understand how it does.

The bounty, detection and witness system is more complicated than some know and quite frankly, R* does a pretty lousy job IMO at describing it for players.  ....with information scattered in tips, etc. within the game or sometimes not at all.  

I posted the following in another thread but thought it might be of some help here as well.  ......and this doesn't even cover all aspects of these mechanics:

 

There is a method to the madness and deeper than some understand.  Here is a pretty decent explanation 

https://www.dexerto.com/red-dead-redemption/how-to-never-get-a-bounty-in-red-dead-redemption-2-wanted-system-explained-218399

 

  Quote

Witnesses
The first thing to understand is witnesses. Any individual or individuals who see Arthur commit a crime, from disturbing the peace to cold blooded murder, will become witnesses. You can see these witnesses marked on the mini-map with an eye symbol. Use a mask around them and stop and intimidate them into not talking if there is only one of them.

If you do not use a mask, witnesses will immediately recognize you as Arthur Morgan. You will know if they have recognized you are not, as it will either say 'Unknown Suspect' or 'Arthur Morgan' underneath the Wanted sign in the top right.

This wanted loop, via Reddit user BurayanFury, comes from the Red Dead Redemption 2 companion app, and provides the best breakdown of the Wanted and Bounty system, and how to never get a bounty.

red-dead-redemption-2-wanted-level.jpg

White eye witnesses

If the eye on the mini-map is white, they know some kind of commotion has occurred, but they don't know by whom or what. As long as you flee the scene quickly, you will get no bounty, as they do not know your identity to report to police.

Dark red eye witnesses

These witnesses didn't get a good look at you either, and so as long as you have not committed a crime in that same area before wearing the same clothes and you are wearing a mask, simply escape the scene and you will not get a bounty.

Bright red eye witnesses

These witnesses have seen the crime and know exactly who you are. These witnesses you definitely want to stop and intimidate them into not talking. However, if there are multiple dark red eye witnesses, you are best to just flee the scene and accept your bounty.

Lawmen
Lawmen appear to have super powers in Red Dead Redemption 2, as even if you are wearing a mask, they will immediately recognize you as Arthur Morgan through any disguise. If this happens, you will get a bounty.

If you recently had a bounty in an area, and you return to the same area with the same clothes, hairstyle and horse, you will be instantly recognized when you commit another crime, even if you have a mask on.

If worst comes to worst, and you do get a bounty, you simply need to head to a post office to pay it off.

At lower wanted levels, when you haven't committed crimes too severe, you will also get the option to surrender to the law. In this case, you will taken to a local jail where you will wait out your sentence, but members of your gang will also come to help break you out.

Edited by Kean_1
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13 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

......*Saint Denis.

I think it's also fair to acknowledge that some players are simply overstating their experience though as a few of the explanations I've heard have clearly show they are takking a hamfisted approach to the game.  I'm not saying that is necessarily true for all who have complained about the bounty mechanic but I also believe that at least a portion of those players are a victim of their own actions.  .....in other words, the game is working as designed in those cases but it's simply a matter of either not understanding or not wanting to understand how it does.

The bounty, detection and witness system is more complicated than some know and quite frankly, R* does a pretty lousy job IMO at describing it for players.  ....with information scattered in tips, etc. within the game or sometimes not at all.  

I posted the following in another thread but thought it might be of some help here as well.  ......and this doesn't even cover all aspects of these mechanics:

 

There is a method to the madness and deeper than some understand.  Here is a pretty decent explanation 

https://www.dexerto.com/red-dead-redemption/how-to-never-get-a-bounty-in-red-dead-redemption-2-wanted-system-explained-218399

 

  Quote

Witnesses
The first thing to understand is witnesses. Any individual or individuals who see Arthur commit a crime, from disturbing the peace to cold blooded murder, will become witnesses. You can see these witnesses marked on the mini-map with an eye symbol. Use a mask around them and stop and intimidate them into not talking if there is only one of them.

If you do not use a mask, witnesses will immediately recognize you as Arthur Morgan. You will know if they have recognized you are not, as it will either say 'Unknown Suspect' or 'Arthur Morgan' underneath the Wanted sign in the top right.

This wanted loop, via Reddit user BurayanFury, comes from the Red Dead Redemption 2 companion app, and provides the best breakdown of the Wanted and Bounty system, and how to never get a bounty.

red-dead-redemption-2-wanted-level.jpg

White eye witnesses

If the eye on the mini-map is white, they know some kind of commotion has occurred, but they don't know by whom or what. As long as you flee the scene quickly, you will get no bounty, as they do not know your identity to report to police.

Dark red eye witnesses

These witnesses didn't get a good look at you either, and so as long as you have not committed a crime in that same area before wearing the same clothes and you are wearing a mask, simply escape the scene and you will not get a bounty.

Bright red eye witnesses

These witnesses have seen the crime and know exactly who you are. These witnesses you definitely want to stop and intimidate them into not talking. However, if there are multiple dark red eye witnesses, you are best to just flee the scene and accept your bounty.

Lawmen
Lawmen appear to have super powers in Red Dead Redemption 2, as even if you are wearing a mask, they will immediately recognize you as Arthur Morgan through any disguise. If this happens, you will get a bounty.

If you recently had a bounty in an area, and you return to the same area with the same clothes, hairstyle and horse, you will be instantly recognized when you commit another crime, even if you have a mask on.

If worst comes to worst, and you do get a bounty, you simply need to head to a post office to pay it off.

At lower wanted levels, when you haven't committed crimes too severe, you will also get the option to surrender to the law. In this case, you will taken to a local jail where you will wait out your sentence, but members of your gang will also come to help break you out.

Awesome chart. 

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On 11/17/2018 at 11:23 AM, Kean_1 said:

I think it's also fair to acknowledge that some players are simply overstating their experience though as a few of the explanations I've heard have clearly show they are takking a hamfisted approach to the game. 

In my opinion this is exactly what's happening. And that is the perfect word to sum up the approach. 

There's no question you can acquire a bounty for some pretty unfair reasons but there are plenty of ways to avoid it. If you do happen to generate a bounty, especially in a town, just surrender. Unless it's a shooting crime you will spend a few days incarcerated and then you're back on the streets. And I think you only have to pay 80% of your bounty!

I think the contingent that is adamant that the game is "broken" or "unplayable" are the GTA players that want reckless abandon and zero repercussions. 

I really hope Rockstar doesn't cave and give in to these people either. I'll concede the bounty system needs a few tweaks but don't make it more GTA. Especially online.

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On 10/31/2018 at 9:12 AM, digger54 said:

I'm being robbed and then shot at.  I shoot back in self defense and kill the robber.  Someone sees me do it and reports me to the law and now there is a bounty on me for murder?  WTF?  

This weekend, I encountered a couple of guys by the road, that drew on me and I shot back while witnesses was riding by.  I then got down and looted them as people continued to ride on by.  No mask and no bounty.  Took their extra horse and sold it.  No bounty.  

Then again I have ridden into town without a bounty and poof! have a bounty of $400+ and have done nothing to earn it.  The red flags have been strange for bounties for me.

@Kean_1 @rick249kdr  To some extinct maybe but not always from my experience.  I am very cautious in my actions and yet get excessive bounties.  Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen.   I don't think the game is broken, I do think there are triggers in the game, that we haven't figured out or even Rockstar doesn't realize is in the game that affects certain players different.

I also hope this system is similar to what we see online, for those who do want to go nuts, will see heavy punishments, requiring players to be more careful in their actions. 

Edited by YodaMan 3D
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50 minutes ago, rick249kdr said:

pretty unfair reasons

Like pressing Y to take a ride on the coach and instead hopping on and being accused of stealing it... Had to run around for like 5 minutes before I could try again. Should've just ridden My Horse...

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56 minutes ago, YodaMan 3D said:

I don't think the 2 people I met was part of any gang.  I road up onto their camp and they drew on me.  I shot back.   No one seemed to care.  The whole wanted/bounty thing just seems a little off.  Glitch or not.

This happened to me outside of the Van Horn trading post.  I came across a random Murfee Clan camp and killed them both, only to have strangers on horseback (STRANGERS not Gang members) start randomly shooting at me when they saw the bodies.

Now, I ALWAYS dump the bodies off road or on the fire to burn them.  When the Murfees jumped me on a bridge recently, you'd best believe I slew and threw (all of them off the bridge and directly onto the rail tracks below).  No muss, no fuss, no "Wanted" or "Investigating".

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1 hour ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

This happened to me outside of the Van Horn trading post.  I came across a random Murfee Clan camp and killed them both, only to have strangers on horseback (STRANGERS not Gang members) start randomly shooting at me when they saw the bodies.

Now, I ALWAYS dump the bodies off road or on the fire to burn them.  When the Murfees jumped me on a bridge recently, you'd best believe I slew and threw (all of them off the bridge and directly onto the rail tracks below).  No muss, no fuss, no "Wanted" or "Investigating".

What happened to your wall of bodies? 

 

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2 hours ago, YodaMan 3D said:

 

@Kean_1 @rick249kdr  To some extinct maybe but not always from my experience.  I am very cautious in my actions and yet get excessive bounties.  Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen.   I don't think the game is broken, I do think there are triggers in the game, that we haven't figured out or even Rockstar doesn't realize is in the game that affects certain players different.

I said it before but I think it bears repeating so I am not misunderstood....

 

On 11/17/2018 at 8:23 AM, Kean_1 said:

I think it's also fair to acknowledge that some players are simply overstating their experience though as a few of the explanations I've heard have clearly show they are takking a hamfisted approach to the game.  I'm not saying that is necessarily true for all who have complained about the bounty mechanic but I also believe that at least a portion of those players are a victim of their own actions.  .....in other words, the game is working as designed in those cases but it's simply a matter of either not understanding or not wanting to understand how it does.

The bounty, detection and witness system is more complicated than some know and quite frankly, R* does a pretty lousy job IMO at describing it for players.  ....with information scattered in tips, etc. within the game or sometimes not at all.  

Personally, I think that the whole mechanic is not fully understood and quite frankly, that is where I think R* fails.  They should offer a comprehensive explanation detailing what those "triggers" are and how a players current bounty level, actions, moral gauge, etc. affect NPC and gameplay.  Some of this could even be randomization as to what an NPC might do.  If you've noticed, some are not as easily intimidated as others, quicker to engage you, etc.

Personally, I don't tend to rack up bounties.  I pay them off almost immediately and in the cases where they are high (typically due to a mission), I avoid the area/state until I can pay it off.  The game has been fairly predictable for me.

As for the automatic bounty due to no action your part , I don't know what to say about that.  If it indeed was due to nothing you took part in, I would say its a bug.  Everytime I had a bounty I could either see it on the map or on my information screen (when I use the D-pad down button) when I was in the affected area.  Once I entered an area where a bounty was whether it was a town like Strawberry or state, I would see the bounty.  

$400 is awful high as the only time mine have been that much was due to a mission.  .....but then again, I don't tend to collect bounties as I pay them off when I can and I also tend not to perform acts that will get me in serious trouble for the most part.

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1 hour ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

This happened to me outside of the Van Horn trading post.  I came across a random Murfee Clan camp and killed them both, only to have strangers on horseback (STRANGERS not Gang members) start randomly shooting at me when they saw the bodies.

Now, I ALWAYS dump the bodies off road or on the fire to burn them.  When the Murfees jumped me on a bridge recently, you'd best believe I slew and threw (all of them off the bridge and directly onto the rail tracks below).  No muss, no fuss, no "Wanted" or "Investigating".

That whole are over there on that coast and through the Roanoke region (where the hillbillies are) can be brutal.  Seems you mess with one of them there, all the locals join in.

I had a similar issue in Van Horn where I antagonized someone due to the lip he was giving me. Thought I would get in a fist fight, knock him out and continue on my way.   .....well, as soon as he got pissed enough, he threw a punch and then several others joined in.  Guns inevitably came out and then I was in a fight with the whole town trying to get out.  

In contrast, not all towns are like this but this region is. Had the same problem in a small hillbilly village when I decimated the whole town.  .....screwed my whole moral gauge on that one but never got a bounty.  No one ever threatened to go to the law but seemed to take matters into their own hands instead. 

I'm sure this is by design and I like it.  ....gives a feeling of variety.  I don't react to things in this region the same I would in others. 

Also, those Murfee Brood(?) boys are all over the place.  I was attacked 3 consecutive times my first time through there.  I was literally fighting my way out of the region.  ....barely made it but luckily most of them were on foot.  Fun stuff.

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21 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

I had a similar issue in Van Horn where I antagonized someone due to the lip he was giving me. Thought I would get in a fist fight, knock him out and continue on my way.   .....well, as soon as he got pissed enough, he threw a punch and then several others joined in.  Guns inevitably came out and then I was in a fight with the whole town trying to get out.  

I did the EXACT same thing...

Didn't notice too many women in the area, so I can't really blame them for being like that... That was probably the most action that dude has gotten in a while.

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1 hour ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

They feel to me like the lackeys from the island at the end of Commando, and I feel like John Matrix mowing them down.

.....talk about a movie that doesn't hold up to time.  It was cheesy back then but so bad now.  Funny how I remember exactly what you were talking about.  😄

Captain Bennett has to be one of the worst bad guys in movie history especially paired against Arnold.  .....as if we're supposed to believe this overweight, out of shape Australian was a match for Matrix.  I guess the chain mail was supposed to help sell it.  🤣

Image result for captain bennett commando

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my experience - 

Ambush on the road/bridge/etc, you can kill and loot and steal horses and whatever,  as long as they shoot first, without committing a crime.

Other gang members you can obliterate and not get a crime, doesn't matter who shoots first.  I killed a passing Leymoine Raider and looted him, guy riding by thanked me lol

Innocents that you antagonize, bump into, don't like your BO, whatever,  if they start shooting first, you can kill them, without committing a crime.  The crime comes if you take any action to them after you kill them - looting, kicking, moving, etc.

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18 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

.....talk about a movie that doesn't hold up to time.  It was cheesy back then but so bad now.  Funny how I remember exactly what you were talking about.  😄

Captain Bennett has to be one of the worst bad guys in movie history especially paired against Arnold.  .....as if we're supposed to believe this overweight, out of shape Australian was a match for Matrix.  I guess the chain mail was supposed to help sell it.  🤣

 

But he does have one of the most classic badguy lines ever:

No Arnold film is as much fun for me as this one.

My son loves the parts of it he's seen (yes, I'm a terrible parent).  The other day when I was dumping Murfee Clan boys off a bridge onto some railroad tracks, he walked into the room and said, "Dad, what happened to those guys?  Did you (imitating Arnold) 'let them go'?"

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