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Fraud


smurfwashere
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10 minutes ago, smurfwashere said:

i have a question, when looking at saddles and having the option to buy for gold then sent to psn store to buy gold for REAL money, then come back and the option to buy for gold is gone, is that fraud?

I don't think I would jump straight to fraud... Sounds like a bug, not an intentional "**** you".

Try restarting the game. If that doesn't work, contact customer support.

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3 minutes ago, smurfwashere said:

Its  not a bug. Youtube has many clips of the same thing. It clearly shows buy for gold, then you are prompted to go to psn store to spend REAL money then when it brings you back the option to buy for gold is gone. Hourly there is more youtube clips of the same thing from different ppl. I think the scumbag business side of Red dead should expect a large law suit coming and all that money they made to disappear along with the player base.

I highly doubt they would do something like that intentionally. This isn't Gun Media we're talking about.

I'm not denying that it's happening, I just seriously doubt it's intentional. Send in a report (like everyone else should also be doing) and they'll figure it out. You don't need to threaten a lawsuit lol

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31 minutes ago, smurfwashere said:

Its  not a bug. Youtube has many clips of the same thing. It clearly shows buy for gold, then you are prompted to go to psn store to spend REAL money then when it brings you back the option to buy for gold is gone. Hourly there is more youtube clips of the same thing from different ppl. I think the scumbag business side of Red dead should expect a large law suit coming and all that money they made to disappear along with the player base.

 

Do you really think they would do something like that intentionally and not expect lawsuits? Of course not. If it were intentional, legal recourse would be swift, and they're smart enough to know that. As was suggested before, try contacting customer support and see if they can help you before making angry decisions, like these jerky-jerkfaces are just trying to scam you out of your cashola. 

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On 12/18/2018 at 8:59 PM, smurfwashere said:

i have a question, when looking at saddles and having the option to buy for gold then sent to psn store to buy gold for REAL money, then come back and the option to buy for gold is gone, is that fraud?

 

Bit harsh Smurf?  Probably a glitch! But I'd probably have been the same! :)  Best go and shoot up Rhodes to vent your anger!!

 

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On 12/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Truth said:

This isn't Gun Media we're talking about.

giphy.gif

 

On 12/18/2018 at 3:59 PM, smurfwashere said:

i have a question, when looking at saddles and having the option to buy for gold then sent to psn store to buy gold for REAL money, then come back and the option to buy for gold is gone, is that fraud?

No.  One of the key elements necessary to prove fraud is intent.  Unless there's a paper trail via inter-company communications (email, memos) that proves this was an intentional element implemented to induce the customer to purchase gold via microtransactions, this does not rise to the level of fraud.

23 minutes ago, YodaMan 3D said:

I have had similar issues.  Been saving up gold and then when I had enough the option to use it to buy things was gone.  It appears that they have removed the option so that you have to reach a certain level and have the right amount of gold.  For some things I guess you can still buy with gold regardless of level, but the best stuff you are hosed.

This thread is the exact reason why I've elected to hoard my gold that was awarded, and not purchase additional gold until the mode is out of Beta.

The final product is going to be different--which is why online games have Terms of Service or License Agreements that specifically state that as a consumer, you don't actually own the game, you're just purchasing a license to access a service.  It's an important distinction, one which allows for on-the-fly changes to come without warning and with very few protections built in for the customer.

A lawsuit will also be immediately challenged by R*.  For those of you who skipped the EULA for Red Dead (and Red Dead Online):

MISCELLANEOUS
If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected.


BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION - PLEASE READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY. IT MAY SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER YOUR RIGHTS, INCLUDING YOUR RIGHT TO FILE A LAWSUIT IN COURT.

This binding individual arbitration section will not apply to the extent prohibited by the laws of your country of residence.
You and the Company agree that should any dispute, claim, or controversy arise between us regarding any Company products or services (hereafter a “Dispute”), whether based in contract, statute, regulation, ordinance, tort (including fraud, misrepresentation, fraudulent inducement, or negligence), or any other legal or equitable theory, except for those matters listed in the Exclusions From Arbitration paragraph below, and expressly including the validity, enforceability, or scope of this ‘BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION’ section (with the exception of the enforceability of the Class Action Waiver clause below), shall be submitted to binding arbitration, as described below, rather than being resolved in court. The term “Dispute” is to be given the broadest possible meaning that will be enforced and includes, for example, all matters arising under this Agreement, the Privacy Policy, the Terms of Service, or any other agreement with the Company. You understand that there is no judge or jury in arbitration and that court review of an arbitration award is limited.

 

Exclusions From Arbitration. You and the Company agree that any claim filed by You or the Company in small claims court on an individual basis are not subject to the arbitration terms contained in this Section. In addition, the Company or You shall have the right to seek an injunction against you in court in order to preserve the status quo while an arbitration proceeds.
 

Class Action Waiver. THE ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS DESCRIBED HEREIN WILL BE CONDUCTED ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS ONLY. Neither You nor the Company shall be entitled to join or consolidate disputes by or against other individuals or entities, or to arbitrate any dispute in a representative capacity, including, without limitation, as a representative member of a class or in a private attorney general capacity, in connection with any Dispute. Further, unless both You and the Company agree, the arbitrator may not consolidate more than one person’s claim. The arbitrator may award any individual relief or individual remedies that are permitted by applicable law, but may not award relief against the Company respecting any person other than You.


Right to Opt Out of Binding Arbitration. IF YOU WISH TO OPT OUT OF THIS BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION REQUIREMENT, YOU MUST NOTIFY US IN WRITING WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE DATE THAT YOU ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT BUT ARE OPTING OUT OF BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION, UNLESS A LONGER PERIOD IS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW. Your written notification must be mailed to TAKE TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, LEGAL DEPARTMENT, ATTN: ARBITRATION OPT OUT, 110 West 44th Street, New York, New York, 10036. Your notice must include (1) your full name; (2) your mailing address; (3) your Social Club online ID, if you have one; and (4) a clear statement that you do not wish to resolve disputes with the Company through arbitration. You are responsible for ensuring the Company’s receipt of your opt-out notice, and you therefore may wish to send a notice by means that provide a written receipt.
 

Notice of Dispute. If you have a Dispute with the Company, you must send written notice to TAKE TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, LEGAL DEPARTMENT, ATTN: ARBITRATION OF DISPUTE, 110 West 44th Street, New York, New York, 10036, in order to give the Company the opportunity to resolve the dispute informally through negotiation. Notice must be provided within two (2) years of the Dispute having arisen, but in no event after the date on which the initiation of legal proceedings would have been barred under the applicable statute of limitations. The failure to provide timely notice shall bar all claims. If the Company has a dispute with You, the Company will provide notice to the address it has on file for you, if possible. You and the Company agree to negotiate the Dispute in good faith for no less than 30 days after notice of the Dispute is provided. If the Dispute is not resolved within 30 days after receipt of notice of the Dispute, the Company or You may pursue the claim in arbitration as provided in this section.


Arbitration Rules and Procedures. Arbitration shall be subject to the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act and federal arbitration law, and shall be conducted by Judicial Arbitration Mediation Services, Inc. (“JAMS”) pursuant to the JAMS Streamlined Arbitration Rules and Procedures effective July 1, 2014 (the “JAMS Rules”), as modified by this agreement to arbitrate. The JAMS Rules, including instructions for initiating an arbitration, are available on its website at http://www.jamsadr.com/rules-streamlined-arbitration. The Company will pay its arbitration costs as required by the JAMS Rules and, in the event that you are able to demonstrate that the costs of arbitration will be prohibitive as compared to the costs of litigation, the Company will pay as much of your arbitration filing and hearing fees as the arbitrator deems is necessary to prevent the arbitration from being cost-prohibitive as compared to the cost of litigation. Each side shall pay his, her, or its own attorneys’ fees and costs unless the claim(s) at issue permit the prevailing party to be paid its fees and/or litigation costs, in which case the arbitrator shall award fees or costs as required by the applicable law.
Location of Arbitration. At Your option, if an in-person hearing is required under the JAMS Rules, the hearing will occur either in New York County, New York, or in the United States county in which You reside.


Decision of the Arbitrator. Any decision or award by the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties. Unless otherwise agreed, any decision or award shall set forth the factual and legal basis for the award. The arbitrator shall be permitted to award only those remedies in law or equity which are requested by the parties and which the arbitrator determines are supported by credible relevant evidence. Any decision or award may be enforced as a final judgment by any court of competent jurisdiction. If either party unsuccessfully challenges the validity of an award, the unsuccessful party shall pay the opposing party’s costs and attorneys’ fees associated with the challenge.

 

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38 minutes ago, smurfwashere said:

i have a question, when looking at saddles and having the option to buy for gold then sent to psn store to buy gold for REAL money, then come back and the option to buy for gold is gone, is that fraud?

 

I watched a video yesterday where it discussed this very topic. Guy said it was left in unintentionally from an earlier build, and that Take2 were so adamant that they wanted gold in right away, that R* totally forgot to take it out. 

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I have had similar issues.  Been saving up gold and then when I had enough the option to use it to buy things was gone.  It appears that they have removed the option so that you have to reach a certain level and have the right amount of gold.  For some things I guess you can still buy with gold regardless of level, but the best stuff you are hosed.

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7 hours ago, Holyskin said:

does anybody have a source for these videos that show this 'bug'? 9 times out of 10 the player has looked up the wrong saddle when coming back with their gold. and shame on you for supporting this industry in continuing to monetize their games.

If there was no profit incentive no big games would ever get written.

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1 hour ago, BropolloCreed79 said:

giphy.gif

 

No.  One of the key elements necessary to prove fraud is intent.  Unless there's a paper trail via inter-company communications (email, memos) that proves this was an intentional element implemented to induce the customer to purchase gold via microtransactions, this does not rise to the level of fraud.

This thread is the exact reason why I've elected to hoard my gold that was awarded, and not purchase additional gold until the mode is out of Beta.

The final product is going to be different--which is why online games have Terms of Service or License Agreements that specifically state that as a consumer, you don't actually own the game, you're just purchasing a license to access a service.  It's an important distinction, one which allows for on-the-fly changes to come without warning and with very few protections built in for the customer.

A lawsuit will also be immediately challenged by R*.  For those of you who skipped the EULA for Red Dead (and Red Dead Online):

MISCELLANEOUS
If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected.


BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION - PLEASE READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY. IT MAY SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER YOUR RIGHTS, INCLUDING YOUR RIGHT TO FILE A LAWSUIT IN COURT.

This binding individual arbitration section will not apply to the extent prohibited by the laws of your country of residence.
You and the Company agree that should any dispute, claim, or controversy arise between us regarding any Company products or services (hereafter a “Dispute”), whether based in contract, statute, regulation, ordinance, tort (including fraud, misrepresentation, fraudulent inducement, or negligence), or any other legal or equitable theory, except for those matters listed in the Exclusions From Arbitration paragraph below, and expressly including the validity, enforceability, or scope of this ‘BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION’ section (with the exception of the enforceability of the Class Action Waiver clause below), shall be submitted to binding arbitration, as described below, rather than being resolved in court. The term “Dispute” is to be given the broadest possible meaning that will be enforced and includes, for example, all matters arising under this Agreement, the Privacy Policy, the Terms of Service, or any other agreement with the Company. You understand that there is no judge or jury in arbitration and that court review of an arbitration award is limited.

 

Exclusions From Arbitration. You and the Company agree that any claim filed by You or the Company in small claims court on an individual basis are not subject to the arbitration terms contained in this Section. In addition, the Company or You shall have the right to seek an injunction against you in court in order to preserve the status quo while an arbitration proceeds.
 

Class Action Waiver. THE ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS DESCRIBED HEREIN WILL BE CONDUCTED ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS ONLY. Neither You nor the Company shall be entitled to join or consolidate disputes by or against other individuals or entities, or to arbitrate any dispute in a representative capacity, including, without limitation, as a representative member of a class or in a private attorney general capacity, in connection with any Dispute. Further, unless both You and the Company agree, the arbitrator may not consolidate more than one person’s claim. The arbitrator may award any individual relief or individual remedies that are permitted by applicable law, but may not award relief against the Company respecting any person other than You.


Right to Opt Out of Binding Arbitration. IF YOU WISH TO OPT OUT OF THIS BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION REQUIREMENT, YOU MUST NOTIFY US IN WRITING WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE DATE THAT YOU ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT BUT ARE OPTING OUT OF BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION, UNLESS A LONGER PERIOD IS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW. Your written notification must be mailed to TAKE TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, LEGAL DEPARTMENT, ATTN: ARBITRATION OPT OUT, 110 West 44th Street, New York, New York, 10036. Your notice must include (1) your full name; (2) your mailing address; (3) your Social Club online ID, if you have one; and (4) a clear statement that you do not wish to resolve disputes with the Company through arbitration. You are responsible for ensuring the Company’s receipt of your opt-out notice, and you therefore may wish to send a notice by means that provide a written receipt.
 

Notice of Dispute. If you have a Dispute with the Company, you must send written notice to TAKE TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, LEGAL DEPARTMENT, ATTN: ARBITRATION OF DISPUTE, 110 West 44th Street, New York, New York, 10036, in order to give the Company the opportunity to resolve the dispute informally through negotiation. Notice must be provided within two (2) years of the Dispute having arisen, but in no event after the date on which the initiation of legal proceedings would have been barred under the applicable statute of limitations. The failure to provide timely notice shall bar all claims. If the Company has a dispute with You, the Company will provide notice to the address it has on file for you, if possible. You and the Company agree to negotiate the Dispute in good faith for no less than 30 days after notice of the Dispute is provided. If the Dispute is not resolved within 30 days after receipt of notice of the Dispute, the Company or You may pursue the claim in arbitration as provided in this section.


Arbitration Rules and Procedures. Arbitration shall be subject to the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act and federal arbitration law, and shall be conducted by Judicial Arbitration Mediation Services, Inc. (“JAMS”) pursuant to the JAMS Streamlined Arbitration Rules and Procedures effective July 1, 2014 (the “JAMS Rules”), as modified by this agreement to arbitrate. The JAMS Rules, including instructions for initiating an arbitration, are available on its website at http://www.jamsadr.com/rules-streamlined-arbitration. The Company will pay its arbitration costs as required by the JAMS Rules and, in the event that you are able to demonstrate that the costs of arbitration will be prohibitive as compared to the costs of litigation, the Company will pay as much of your arbitration filing and hearing fees as the arbitrator deems is necessary to prevent the arbitration from being cost-prohibitive as compared to the cost of litigation. Each side shall pay his, her, or its own attorneys’ fees and costs unless the claim(s) at issue permit the prevailing party to be paid its fees and/or litigation costs, in which case the arbitrator shall award fees or costs as required by the applicable law.
Location of Arbitration. At Your option, if an in-person hearing is required under the JAMS Rules, the hearing will occur either in New York County, New York, or in the United States county in which You reside.


Decision of the Arbitrator. Any decision or award by the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties. Unless otherwise agreed, any decision or award shall set forth the factual and legal basis for the award. The arbitrator shall be permitted to award only those remedies in law or equity which are requested by the parties and which the arbitrator determines are supported by credible relevant evidence. Any decision or award may be enforced as a final judgment by any court of competent jurisdiction. If either party unsuccessfully challenges the validity of an award, the unsuccessful party shall pay the opposing party’s costs and attorneys’ fees associated with the challenge.

 

Legal Translation.  You are hosed and nothing you can really do about it.  

@BropolloCreed79 See I can translate to and do it in fewer words that most will understand.  

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If you guys really want to help effect change, submit your feedback to R*.   Provide them with the details of your experience with the gold bar system.

I suspect it's an oversight if it is occurring as some describe and not intentional deceit but then again, some will automatically assume the worst regardless.

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15 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

If you guys really want to help effect change, submit your feedback to R*.   Provide them with the details of your experience with the gold bar system.

I suspect it's an oversight if it is occurring as some describe and not intentional deceit but then again, some will automatically assume the worst regardless.

I have and yet wait to see if it comes to any fruitation.

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4 hours ago, Kean_1 said:

If you guys really want to help effect change, submit your feedback to R*.   Provide them with the details of your experience with the gold bar system.

I suspect it's an oversight if it is occurring as some describe and not intentional deceit but then again, some will automatically assume the worst regardless.

This. I mean it is great we are talking about issues here and all but nothing will get solved if we only complain to each other. 

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4 hours ago, cory206 said:

Youtube videos are proof of nothing, and claims of Youtube videos that no-one has seen are proof only of your trolling. So you don't like Rockstar. So what. I love them. I'm the player base.

I see so many videos people post on the game where they are pointing out "bugs" but it is just people doing something wrong or a glitch that happened to happen that one time. I also see people trying to pull the "RoCkStAr iS rIpPiNg Of ItS fAnBaSe" meme and sh*t don't stick to walls without a bit of saliva. I'll let you figure out what that means. lol

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This exact same thing happened to me when it came to the Arabian horse. I went and bought the gold and then was no longer given the option to buy the horse with gold. I've contacted Rockstar probably ten times and have asked for a supervisor three of those 10. Constantly getting beat around the bush and they're refusing to refund my $20. This is absolutely a scam, it might not be a deliberate one on Rockstar but being that it is an issue and they won't refund the money kind of makes me wonder. To me right now I have no more respect for this company because of the way they're going about fixing the issue.

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Its  not a bug. Youtube has many clips of the same thing. It clearly shows buy for gold, then you are prompted to go to psn store to spend REAL money then when it brings you back the option to buy for gold is gone. Hourly there is more youtube clips of the same thing from different ppl. I think the scumbag business side of Red dead should expect a large law suit coming and all that money they made to disappear along with the player base.

 

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