defensive mode issue

[lumper]

So, I have had this scenario play out three times now.

I just used the Rockstar suggestion form to suggest a fix.

Here is what has been happening.

A level 5 player, ( for some reason all three were level 5 players,) so brand new, right out of the intro, come to think of it dont you have to steal a horse and all that and you end up I thought at level 7 or 11?

I dont remember but it just now dawned on me at level 5 you just entered the game for the first time where you can actually free roam, lol.

Ok, so here is what they do.

See me skinning an animal usually and then point a carbine repeater at me and start shooting, sigh..

Its not a problem like "oh no I keep getting attacked", lol its hardly an attack, it is barely a threat, BUT it is inconvenient, and it is backwards because here is how this plays out.

So ok I warned him once, he is still pointing and or shooting, so ok, I pull out dual sawed off's and dismembered him, now I immediately turn red/offensive so now I can be easily targeted, etc..he presses charges, lol after instigating this and being the aggressor with obvious intent, but ok, and then he comes attacking.

It was pretty funny to see this little dude with his un-modified carbine come charging on foot, lol and I told him again in the mic, "Dude, you started it and got what you deserved, if I came up to you and pointed a gun, you would have shot me, AND I told you not too, now if you keep coming all you are going to do is waste my ammo and time, I have things to do."

But he kept coming, so I changed to my Slippery B card to reverse the offensive auto targeting thing he had been given and then I arm a bow with dyna arrows and wait, after 3 I left the server because I don't want to waste my dynamite.

The point is, when a player comes up and points his gun at you, HE or SHE should then become red and offensive so that if you decide to defend yourself and shoot first to prevent being killed, you are allowed to and not charged or made the offender.

I just think as soon as he targeted me, he should have gone red, I didnt give him a chance this time, previously I did and I was shot each time, so I got sick of that and figured, if they come up and point a gun at me, I'm shooting.

But I don't think it is right that I get the penalty albeit small and the medium offensive level wears off in about 10 minutes so... But still I think they need to fix that.

[The_Liquor]

Yes... targeting should make you an enemy instantly... the only downside to that I can see is I frequently accidentally target people with absolutely no intentions of shooting them. I’d be an enemy to a lot of people. But in a way, if I point a gun at you, accidentally or not, I kind of have it coming.

Edited June 8, 2019 by The_Liquor

[The Coca-Cola Kid]

Just like in real life - if I’m on target and any one (not in a US uniform) raises a weapon at me or my guys - I am fully authorized to put that individual down. So I agree, accident or not, target someone and that is good enough to be considered a threat.

[C20Dragon]

I think R* changed it.   if someone aims at you before, they normally turn red. But I've noticed that they  don't turn red anymore too. Only turn red when the player shoots at you.  Not sure if R* changed something or if it's a glitch. I think they changed it because I would have players ride up to me while shooting bots and I would auto aim on them and turn red.  Now I don't see that happening, but I'm also in defensive mode all the time now. So I don't accidentally auto lock on players while clearing out a gang hideout with some random that rides up.

[Moosh89]

Yesterday I found an influx of players riding up to me while I was in Defensive mode, minding my business and aiming at me or pulling out their knife or lasso while approaching me. I checked one's level and they were 35 so not necessarily a new player. I'd pull out my Pump Action shotgun or Lancaster repeater and give them a staredown. Some rode off and some shot me once or pulled me from my horse. I killed some while stuck in Free aim from being in Defensive mode and they moved on.

Then I spawned into a fresh session just outside of Blackwater and immediately reactivated Defensive mode. Within the 30 seconds it took to enable a player from a posse rode up to me and shot me in the body with lock on aim. I locked onto him and shot once, then Defensive kicked in and we couldn't lock onto each other anymore. He rode off and I called my horse to leave. Just as I got to my horse he headshot me with the bow as I was mounting up. Then I notice his whole posse was red and they started talking over their headsets. The guy who killed me asked his posse leader how I was able to turn my dot invisible and why he couldn't lock onto me. The leader said that I probably entered Defensive mode.

This thought just came to me. What if there was a meter system similar to the wild horses who will become spooked when you lock onto them? If I'm in Defensive mode and a player in Offensive mode comes up to me and keeps their reticule on me for over 2 seconds, I can look back at them and press Square if I'm feeling threatened to tag them as a hostile player. Once they shoot me once while I have them tagged as hostile I should be able to lock onto them. If I kill them, I could not incur a hostility increase or Murder charge. The key mechanic is they have to shoot or strike me first. This way it cannot be abused, because right now, people are waiting for me to make the first move of action, as if they're baiting me.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Moosh89

[Traks1]

Had the "baiting" thing myself once or twice but I happily took that bait on each occasion. Why anyone would think the in-game penalties would deter me in any way from blowing their faces off whilst being unecessarily provoked I really can't imagine😂. Whatever the individual involved may believe my reaction is going to be to being baited into a "crime" is, I wish I could inform them that all that really just happened, as far as I am concerned, was a wasted a couple of minutes of game time for both of us and yet another poor duck that has to be mercilessly hunted down sometime in my near future.

As per what @The Coca-Cola Kid said, point anything at me or mine and you'll always be guaranteed a fully sanctioned from on high, fast as my ol' reflexes can arrange it, duck fat enhanced insta-boom to the face, entirely and completely free of any and all concerns regarding so called penalties I might incur after the event. Never been good with "teasers" or the like me.  Some dogs will always bite. Don't "tease" is probably good advice for anyone I think. Woof woof.

[HuDawg]

I've been running into high level players.   That cheap shot kill me for no reason.

Then when I come back at them and kill them a few times.  They turn on defensive mode and still attack me..    Giving themselves a bit of damage reduction and forcing free aim on me.   

Players should not be able to turn on defensive mode during a gun fight that that they started. 

 

 

 

[The Coca-Cola Kid]

2 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

They turn on defensive mode and still attack me..

I have seen this a few times as well. In one instance, the instigator attacked, turned on defensive mode, and when the other player killed him, pressed charges. 

[HuDawg]

12 minutes ago, The Coca-Cola Kid said:

I have seen this a few times as well. In one instance, the instigator attacked, turned on defensive mode, and when the other player killed him, pressed charges. 

Gawd…  Had this level 200+ player do this to me yesterday.

Killed me once..  I killed him 3 times back.   He goes defensive and starts flinging dynamite arrows at me.

He killed me a few times..  So I decided to turn on defensive mode too, to even the the playing field.  Right after my 1st kill while im in defensive mode he decides to parlay.

SO far, this guy might be the biggest wuss I've ever seen in RDO.  He was twice my level FFS...lol

 

[lumper]

21 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

Yes... targeting should make you an enemy instantly... the only downside to that I can see is I frequently accidentally target people with absolutely no intentions of shooting them. I’d be an enemy to a lot of people. But in a way, if I point a gun at you, accidentally or not, I kind of have it coming.

See I thought about that but I have never targeted a player to see who they are or for any reason really so I dont see it as happening by mistake, generally if you aim at something, you tend to shoot at it too.

I dunno, I think its a good idea regardless to make it more realistic.

21 hours ago, The Coca-Cola Kid said:

Just like in real life - if I’m on target and any one (not in a US uniform) raises a weapon at me or my guys - I am fully authorized to put that individual down. So I agree, accident or not, target someone and that is good enough to be considered a threat.

Exaclty.

20 hours ago, C20Dragon said:

I think R* changed it.   if someone aims at you before, they normally turn red. But I've noticed that they  don't turn red anymore too. Only turn red when the player shoots at you.  Not sure if R* changed something or if it's a glitch. I think they changed it because I would have players ride up to me while shooting bots and I would auto aim on them and turn red.  Now I don't see that happening, but I'm also in defensive mode all the time now. So I don't accidentally auto lock on players while clearing out a gang hideout with some random that rides up.

Yeah, you are right.

18 hours ago, Moosh89 said:

Yesterday I found an influx of players riding up to me while I was in Defensive mode, minding my business and aiming at me or pulling out their knife or lasso while approaching me. I checked one's level and they were 35 so not necessarily a new player. I'd pull out my Pump Action shotgun or Lancaster repeater and give them a staredown. Some rode off and some shot me once or pulled me from my horse. I killed some while stuck in Free aim from being in Defensive mode and they moved on.

Then I spawned into a fresh session just outside of Blackwater and immediately reactivated Defensive mode. Within the 30 seconds it took to enable a player from a posse rode up to me and shot me in the body with lock on aim. I locked onto him and shot once, then Defensive kicked in and we couldn't lock onto each other anymore. He rode off and I called my horse to leave. Just as I got to my horse he headshot me with the bow as I was mounting up. Then I notice his whole posse was red and they started talking over their headsets. The guy who killed me asked his posse leader how I was able to turn my dot invisible and why he couldn't lock onto me. The leader said that I probably entered Defensive mode.

This thought just came to me. What if there was a meter system similar to the wild horses who will become spooked when you lock onto them? If I'm in Defensive mode and a player in Offensive mode comes up to me and keeps their reticule on me for over 2 seconds, I can look back at them and press Square if I'm feeling threatened to tag them as a hostile player. Once they shoot me once while I have them tagged as hostile I should be able to lock onto them. If I kill them, I could not incur a hostility increase or Murder charge. The key mechanic is they have to shoot or strike me first. This way it cannot be abused, because right now, people are waiting for me to make the first move of action, as if they're baiting me.

See, I think this is some kind of strategy, they antagonize you, then switch to defensive making it harder to hit them and so when you do, you become the one that can be charged and you become easily targeted, it is how it seems anyway, maybe Im wrong.

2 hours ago, HuDawg said:

I've been running into high level players.   That cheap shot kill me for no reason.

Then when I come back at them and kill them a few times.  They turn on defensive mode and still attack me..    Giving themselves a bit of damage reduction and forcing free aim on me.   

Players should not be able to turn on defensive mode during a gun fight that that they started. 

 

 

 

Yeah that is odd, and your right, in a fight or after you target someone, there should be a cooling off period where you can not switch on the fly.
Thanks everyone for your feedback, do us all a favor, please send your thoughts on this n 500 characters or less to this link, they may tweak it.
https://www.rockstargames.com/reddeadonline/feedback?redirect_lang=en_us
Thanks

[The_Liquor]

3 hours ago, lumper said:

See I thought about that but I have never targeted a player to see who they are or for any reason really so I dont see it as happening by mistake, generally if you aim at something, you tend to shoot at it too.

I didn’t mean deliberately, such as to look at someone. I mean legitimately accidentally, like going to wave but forgetting you have a pistol out. Or going to shoot a critter but accidentally locking on to the guy galloping down the road well away from it... it happens often to me, but I just may be a clumsy oaf...

[lumper]

2 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

I didn’t mean deliberately, such as to look at someone. I mean legitimately accidentally, like going to wave but forgetting you have a pistol out. Or going to shoot a critter but accidentally locking on to the guy galloping down the road well away from it... it happens often to me, but I just may be a clumsy oaf...

Yeah I understand, I just havent had that happen, I dunno, maybe it does, but it hasnt happened to me, I dont think it would happen enough to be a problem and I think people would learn real quick to be careful to avoid it just like in life.

Who knows, just saying, I do get what you mean.

[Kean_1]

If you're in Defensive Mode, use it to your advantage.  They may have shot toward you but not at you.  Once they hit you then you've got the advantage in fighting back if that's what you want. 

The mode works best when you're trying to avoid potential threats and for evasion.  It's not a passive mode and really can't be treated as a "stand your ground" tactic if you're intentions are truly to avoid conflicts.  .....and that's what it really boils down to.  You can't just turn it on and expect that you won't be trolled. 

Personally, I still spawn into a session away from my intended destination and I'll move on when I see other players approaching, give them a wide berth, etc. when I'm in Defensive Mode.   

I don't know what the chances would be of sweeping another player while in free aim but I'd imagine it wouldn't be very likely.   I know I've done it on accident several times while in auto aim though (snapping on to someone nearby instead of my intended target).  Personally, I wouldn't be against a trigger in the logic to be based on that.  I think that part of it makes sense.

[The_Liquor]

2 hours ago, lumper said:

... and I think people would learn real quick to be careful to avoid it just like in life.

Well, in a 16 year army career and an owner of all sorts of firearms... I can’t think of one situation where I forgot I had a gun in my hand, or accidentally aimed at something I wasn’t even thinking about shooting because it happened to be in the corner of my eye while I was getting ready to aim at a deer or other target.... But your comment kind of made me laugh thinking of people doing such things in real life.

[lumper]

LOL made me laugh thinking about the absurdity of it too.

[HuDawg]

21 hours ago, The_Liquor said:

 I can’t think of one situation where I forgot I had a gun in my hand, or accidentally aimed at something I wasn’t even thinking about shooting because it happened to be in the corner of my eye while I was getting ready to aim at a deer or other target....

 

[The_Liquor]

1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

 

First off, that was no accident... secondly, it wasn’t me, it was the Liquor...

[N7Creed]

My auto-aim seems to have a mind of it's own. It will often pick a random passerby instead of the damn rabbit I'm trying to kill, or a crow. In this case, I think a time limit of 5 seconds. If you don't aim away in 5 seconds, then you mean to aim where the auto-aim put you. 

[lumper]

13 hours ago, N7Creed said:

My auto-aim seems to have a mind of it's own. It will often pick a random passerby instead of the damn rabbit I'm trying to kill, or a crow. In this case, I think a time limit of 5 seconds. If you don't aim away in 5 seconds, then you mean to aim where the auto-aim put you. 

Try going into your settings and adjusting it, from wide to narrow to none or something like that, you can adjust how strong the auto aim reacts for you, I tweaked mine a while back.

[N7Creed]

6 hours ago, lumper said:

Try going into your settings and adjusting it, from wide to narrow to none or something like that, you can adjust how strong the auto aim reacts for you, I tweaked mine a while back.

Ahh thanks. I never needed to in the singleplayer.. Will look into it for RDO.

[jamesg]

Only been playing online for a week and met more "trolls" on this than World of Warcraft. 🤣

[Netnow66]

1 hour ago, jamesgrahamauldern@gmail.c said:

Only been playing online for a week and met more "trolls" on this than World of Warcraft. 🤣

Even the way Blizzard communicates with their customers shows how they totally outclass Rockstar as far as their customer service. Blizzard handles Warcraft on a level to which Rockstar can't compare.

Blizz's handling of  a customer environment is something  you won't find in RDO, not yet any way. I never had the problems with other gamers in Warcraft that I have in RDO.

[Darkvicar]

Did you play vanilla wow on pvp server? Stranglethorn was a grief fest, levelling was sometimes impossible. 

[The_Liquor]

Personally, I thought the whole Warcraft series started going downhill at Warcraft 3... They blended in too much RPG into the real time strategy for my tastes. Looking back I can see that is because they were transitioning their Warcraft series into the current World of Warcraft.  I’ve never even tried World of Warcraft myself.  But I still fire up Warcraft II quite often, that was my Warcraft sweet spot.

But onto the griefing problem... I’m not sure Rockstar wants to actively encourage it. But you can’t really completely eliminate it without completely eliminating PvP. I stand by my original concept of giving PvP some type of purpose, with risks and rewards for whatever play style you choose. I’m hoping the upcoming paths shape up to become a step in this direction.

 

[Netnow66]

1 hour ago, Darkvicar said:

Did you play vanilla wow on pvp server? Stranglethorn was a grief fest, levelling was sometimes impossible. 

God, I played WoW so long ago I don't remember...but if I know me, I pretty sure I was on a PvE server. 

 

1 hour ago, The_Liquor said:

Personally, I thought the whole Warcraft series started going downhill at Warcraft 3... They blended in too much RPG into the real time strategy for my tastes. Looking back I can see that is because they were transitioning their Warcraft series into the current World of Warcraft.  I’ve never even tried World of Warcraft myself.  But I still fire up Warcraft II quite often, that was my Warcraft sweet spot.

But onto the griefing problem... I’m not sure Rockstar wants to actively encourage it. But you can’t really completely eliminate it without completely eliminating PvP. I stand by my original concept of giving PvP some type of purpose, with risks and rewards for whatever play style you choose. I’m hoping the upcoming paths shape up to become a step in this direction.

And now I'm curious about my Warlock. I might try to investigate what I can still find out about him. Another project for me...

Regarding Rockstar's griefing, I feel they do want to encourage it, one of my examples of that is having to wait 30 seconds to enable Defensive mode. At best, I think Rockstar experiences some type of Janus faced disorder in regards to griefing.

[The_Liquor]

I honestly think they’re trying hard to reduce the ‘griefing’ while keeping the PvP element alive. I’ll admit, it seems like an impossible task. But I believe the key is making it all mean something at the end of the day. Real rewards for going after outlaws. Real benefits for robbing and murdering. Real consequences for choosing a life of crime. Real punishment for being a di*k and taking things too far out of the context of the game. If they’re going the same route of open world chaos that they did in GTA, then yeah, I think @HuDawg is right in needing separate servers and the likes. If they’re truly going for something different from another reskin of the same old game, we need to push through the growing pains and hope it works out at the end of the day. 

[Netnow66]

15 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

I honestly think they’re trying hard to reduce the ‘griefing’ while keeping the PvP element alive. I’ll admit, it seems like an impossible task. But I believe the key is making it all mean something at the end of the day. Real rewards for going after outlaws. Real benefits for robbing and murdering. Real consequences for choosing a life of crime. Real punishment for being a di*k and taking things too far out of the context of the game. If they’re going the same route of open world chaos that they did in GTA, then yeah, I think @HuDawg is right in needing separate servers and the likes. If they’re truly going for something different from another reskin of the same old game, we need to push through the growing pains and hope it works out at the end of the day. 

Maybe you're right and Rockstar just isn't "there" yet and they are going for "something different." Maybe I just came on too early (and had others come on, too, unfortunately--they've been totally run off).

What I do know is that i don't feel comfortable giving them a big thumbs up at this point regarding griefing. I still find it curious that I have to select Defensive every time I log in.

[Kean_1]

41 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

If they’re going the same route of open world chaos that they did in GTA, then yeah......

They're not which should be quite obvious after the last few updates if it wasn't before to some people. 

What was also made clear is that they want to keep this "one size fits all" mode that is Free Roam.  ....right, wrong or indifferent.  They have no interest in creating separate session options at this time and directly addressed that.  I'd be for private or friends-only sessions too but that depends on what is included.  If it's anything like GTAO where essentially all CEO and VP activities are locked behind Public sessions, then no.  I would rather have what we have now.

Personally, I think the anti-griefing measures have helped but for those expecting a truly passive experience in Free Roam, that's simply not going to happen.  ....and you can't play the game expecting that any of these options will provide that.  Whether that changes in the future, we'll have to see.
 

From my own experience, my issues with griefers are quite rare.  .....but then again, I essentially use the same SOPs as I always have in regard to randoms to help avoid being trolled.  

[lumper]

Hopefully in time they will get it balanced.

I have a strategy that really works great, I spawn into an  area make a camp and right near there is a hideout and a campsite ambush location, then I fast travel from my camp to the opposite end of the map, there I have two missions givers near eachother and another hideout plus a stranger encounter that comes up too, so I go to the area, do a mission, then do the other mission, then usually the stranger will pop up, after that I will do another mission, then a hideout, then another mission, bu then I need ammo, I fast travel to my camp, when I get there a campsite ambush is under way, so I run over and clear it, then go to my camp, no sooner do I get to camp, I see the hideout is ready, so I go clear that, then back to camp, I load up on ammo and stuff, then fast travel back across the map and repeat, I have done 3 levels a day, plus 11 to 15 gold bars, and everything else, without ever seeing another player, sometimes I do see a player but not very often, today I saw none, yesterday I saw one, the day before none, etc.. so I dunno, if you develope a similar strategy you too can level up, make tons of gold and not deal with others.
Ive been doing this for weeks.

[The_Liquor]

1 hour ago, Kean_1 said:

 I'd be for private or friends-only sessions too but that depends on what is included.  If it's anything like GTAO where essentially all CEO and VP activities are locked behind Public sessions, then no.  I would rather have what we have now.

This right here is my biggest fear with separating the lobbies. The idea that sure, you can have a griefer free lobby, but you can’t do anything useful there. I tried gta on PS4 after a long break. I literally can’t do a single profitable thing due to some jackass flying by on his oppressor and blowing up my stuff without the ability to even try and fight back... yet I cannot make a private lobby and still make some money to be competitive.