Ghosting - or cheating

[Harlock1796]

I do a lot of shooting with lever action rifles and revolvers (yes, it is possible in the UK, despite what you may have heard!) and auto-aim feels much closer to real life shooting than free aim with a console controller does.

As I say above, auto-aim isn't perfect, I agree it's too accurate, especially on horseback, but if we're talking about realism, free-aim isn't the answer. 

How to solve Auto-aim, IMO:

Adjust the size of the shot landing circle, and how quickly the circle shrinks, based on the following factors:

- Weapon type;

- is shooter on horse, or on foot;

- note, different weapons to behave differently  - a revolver is overall less accurate, but is easier to aim than a rifle from a moving horse;

- is shooter moving, if so, how fast;

- is shooter standing, or crouched;

- is target moving, if so, how fast; 

So, to take one extreme, if you're galloping on your horse, trying to use your rifle to shoot a target who is also galloping on their horse, you are going to have a very large aiming circle - you'll get them if they're very close, but otherwise, it's pot-luck, and that circle isn't getting any smaller until you or they stop.  At the other end of the spectrum, you crouch immobile behind a tree with the same rifle and line up on a buffalo that's standing still, your circle becomes a pinpoint very quickly.

All of that is easily doable - some of it is kinda there already - and would reduce the cheesiness of auto aim, if, indeed it is a bit cheesy (I'm not saying it isn't).

[Jeromy]

"He says 'How the hell am I supposed to shoot things while on a horse".  And I told him.  "Calm down, slow down, stop then shoot.. OR ride as fast as you can and just blind fire'.     "

 

I was reading an article the other day about how Hollywood westerns made shooting from a moving horse look so easy when in reality it is exceptionally hard to hit something from a moving horse.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Jeromy

[HuDawg]

14 minutes ago, Harlock1796 said:

 

As I say above, auto-aim isn't perfect, I agree it's too accurate, especially on horseback, but if we're talking about realism, free-aim isn't the answer. 

Well id have to disagree with that.   Don't take my word for it, anyone can try it for themselves.  The problem is the game forces all aim mode users into one type of lobby.

Not only is free aim next to perfect its also more realistic.   Its the players movement in 3rd person that's kind of clunky.

In the end.. Even tho this game is mostly played by players using auto aim.  Free aim is still king in pvp.    Slippery Bastard can force players into a free aim battle, and if that player has no experience what so ever with free aim they get eaten up quickly.

I myself have turned into a snake oil addict.  I always have full snake oils and tonics and can strut around in slippery bastard for 30+ mins if I choose...and I have.  So much so, I've made hostile trolls CRY about it.   Like im cheating..

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by HuDawg

[The_Liquor]

Well, free-aim works for you and that’s just great @HuDawg. To me auto-aim feels more like real life shooting than moving a white dot around... and sure, things do ‘autotrack’ in real life shooting. Maybe not computer assisted, but with a little practice you’ll raise a weapon, be on target and lead/track it if it’s moving all without much conscious effort. I’m with @Harlock1796. If you want more realism, free aim isn’t the answer. Changing the way auto-aim works is. If I’m forced into free aim, I’ll likely just shelve the game myself, get my cowboy guns out and sign up for a cowboy action match at the range lol.

[Kean_1]

The only thing that ever "feels" closer to reality to me are usually FPSs and/or TPS with ADS.   .....like Ghost Recon Wildlands as an example of the latter.  That's actually a decent comparison because aiming feels a little more natural to me without AA enabled although it isn't that overpowered.  Enemies are also not bullet sponges.

Gunplay in R* titles just feels really arcadey and that has never been one aspect of the game that I would say I thought was all that good.  However, for me, it's all about the overall experience, depth, detail and fun factor in their games that keep me coming back.  Playing RDO without AA feels way too jenky to me and even though I think it's overpowered in this game, I still use it.

Fact is, using controllers, mice, keyboards, etc. will never be the same as shooting in reality.  However, some games tend to better than others to help bring a little bit of that "feel" to the player.  Other than some of the sounds, RDO isn't one of them but for that kind of experience I usually turn to tactical shooters like Insurgency Sandstorm that is set to release sometime later this year (which looks really promising).   .....more realistic handling, reloading, good sounds, etc.   

[HuDawg]

8 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

Well, free-aim works for you and that’s just great @HuDawg. To me auto-aim feels more like real life shooting than moving a white dot around... and sure, things do ‘autotrack’ in real life shooting. 

Well the dot still exists in auto aim.  The dot represents where you're aiming. 

Free aim and real life shooting are next to the same concept.  You manually draw your gun, aim at the target and shoot.

Alls I can say is..  Try story mode with free aim only..  No doubt, after a few chapters, free aim just becomes much more natural. Your perception of how you approach every situation in free aim is the opposite of how you would with auto aim

Its impossible to play auto aim constantly and get the feel of free aim instantly.  That's why its takes a bit of getting used to.

 

I was thinking about maybe trying to set up a Free Aim type of weekly event on xbox for co-op missions and stranger missions.. If people want to try it out.  No pressure, no complaining.  Honestly don't care how good someone is..

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by HuDawg

[Miltonastic]

On 6/17/2019 at 7:18 AM, Tom Dooley said:

Abilitycards is kind of a gamekiller, like playing with cheats on

Ya, oooook there superstar. 

[Kean_1]

29 minutes ago, Harlock1796 said:

I do a lot of shooting with lever action rifles and revolvers (yes, it is possible in the UK, despite what you may have heard!) and auto-aim feels much closer to real life shooting than free aim with a console controller does.

As I say above, auto-aim isn't perfect, I agree it's too accurate, especially on horseback, but if we're talking about realism, free-aim isn't the answer. 

How to solve Auto-aim, IMO:

Adjust the size of the shot landing circle, and how quickly the circle shrinks, based on the following factors:

- Weapon type;

- is shooter on horse, or on foot;

- note, different weapons to behave differently  - a revolver is overall less accurate, but is easier to aim than a rifle from a moving horse;

- is shooter moving, if so, how fast;

- is shooter standing, or crouched;

- is target moving, if so, how fast; 

So, to take one extreme, if you're galloping on your horse, trying to use your rifle to shoot a target who is also galloping on their horse, you are going to have a very large aiming circle - you'll get them if they're very close, but otherwise, it's pot-luck, and that circle isn't getting any smaller until you or they stop.  At the other end of the spectrum, you crouch immobile behind a tree with the same rifle and line up on a buffalo that's standing still, your circle becomes a pinpoint very quickly.

All of that is easily doable - some of it is kinda there already - and would reduce the cheesiness of auto aim, if, indeed it is a bit cheesy (I'm not saying it isn't).

Good ideas there.  I might add that since there is no crouch/kneeling or prone in the game, perhaps it takes shooting from cover into consideration as well in reticule recovery and accuracy to mimic someone taking a shot from a more stable position.  Personally, I think stamina/recovery should have played a role as well so someone running & gunning can't shoot just as accurately as someone in a resting position.

I would also wish that they would slow down reloading in the game.  It's simply way too fast.  Guns could be rebalanced to compensate for this and perhaps even TTK.  Maybe even make it a little slower for folks on horseback as that is something that isn't quite that easy to do while riding.  With all of the other ideas, folks might be a little more inclined to slow their roll as they say lending a little more value to tactics in the game.  Folks would give shots some more thought and it could make running out of ammo a lot more intense in a gunfight.  

First time I saw my character reload the Cattleman in the game I laughed.  I wish I could reload my own single action revolver that way.  .....and while I can unload and reload in fairly short order, it's nowhere near the lightning speed shown in the game.  

[Tom Dooley]

Shooting from horseback? The mongoleans were known for their remarkable skills firing their bows from horseback. If you`ve spendt most of your life on a horseback then shooting is no challenge, but the "red dot" might be a bit bigger. 

 

About free aiming; can be learned but as others says it is not easy with a controller. 

 

[HuDawg]

2 minutes ago, Tom Dooley said:

Shooting from horseback? The mongoleans were known for their remarkable skills firing their bows from horseback. If you`ve spendt most of your life on a horseback then shooting is no challenge, but the "red dot" might be a bit bigger. 

 

About free aiming; can be learned but as others says it is not easy with a controller. 

 

Well.. to be fair.. If players spent all their time practicing free aim on horse back, they would have mongo level skills too..lol

Honestly.. Aiming with a controller is not easy.. but its not hard either.   Its less about getting constant head shots and more about hitting any part of they target you can.

[Kean_1]

16 minutes ago, Tom Dooley said:

About free aiming; can be learned but as others says it is not easy with a controller. 

Depends on the game IMO / IME.  Some games have a better "feel" to them than others.  

[The_Liquor]

38 minutes ago, Kean_1 said:

.....and while I can unload and reload in fairly short order, it's nowhere near the lightning speed shown in the game.  

Here, 12 shots on the plate in 6.78 seconds with a single  Colt SAA... only minor cheating lol...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SODMSbV7Fs

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by The_Liquor

[Kean_1]

13 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

Here, 12 shots on the plate in 6.78 seconds with a single  Colt SAA... only minor cheating lol...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SODMSbV7Fs

 

lol....  Yeah, just minor cheating with the swapping of cylinders.    I vaguely recall Clint Eastwood doing that with a cap and ball revolver in one of his movies.  

Mine is a Blackhawk as well although I have the 6 1/2" barrel and it's a New Model (modern cocking system; can unload/reload while hammer is fully forward). 

I've watched a few of Gil's videos before.  He's really talented.  I'm also an owner and big fan of 1911s so it was good to see that in the video too.  

 

 

[The_Liquor]

I solve the problem by having 2 colts... it’s much faster to change guns than to reload... Lol.

On the changing cylinder thing, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Cullen do it a few times throughout the Hell on Wheels series.

[Kean_1]

5 minutes ago, The_Liquor said:

I solve the problem by having 2 colts... it’s much faster to change guns than to reload... Lol.

On the changing cylinder thing, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Cullen do it a few times throughout the Hell on Wheels series.

....and in all honesty, if the reloading times were more realistic in the game, that would add so much more value to having a second sidearm IMO because that's exactly right.  .....and I'm sure a reason those that did carry more than one, chose to do so.  Dual wielding is a Hollywood thing.

Haven't watched HoW yet but I will someday.

[The Blue Hare]

1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

More about hitting any part of they target you can.

Agree and to extend that argument, I have that silly hat-on ability card. Taking five bullets on a speeding horse and not being launched out of the saddle? Add that to the physics improvements as well. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by The Blue Hare
Misspell

[The_Liquor]

1 hour ago, The Blue Hare said:

Agree and to extend that argument, I have that silly hat-on ability card. Taking five bullets on a speeding horse and not being launched out of the saddle? Add that to the physics improvements as well. 

Getting ‘launched’ from a gunshot is also a Hollywood thing I’m afraid...

[The Coca-Cola Kid]

Haha depends on what you mean by “launched.” I assume he meant more like “knocked out of the saddle” which would really depend on some physics if we want to get technical haha ie Target’s travel speed, balance on object (are they hunched over, sitting upright, tied down, holding on to reigns etc), velocity and caliber of the bullet/projectile, angle of travel and contact location -I am sure there is more. Haha

Edited June 18, 2019 by The Coca-Cola Kid

[Kean_1]

48 minutes ago, The Coca-Cola Kid said:

Haha depends on what you mean by “launched.” I assume he meant more like “knocked out of the saddle” which would really depend on some physics if we want to get technical haha ie Target’s travel speed, balance on object (are they hunched over, sitting upright, tied down, holding on to reigns etc), velocity and caliber of the bullet/projectile, angle of travel and contact location -I am sure there is more. Haha

Well, people who are shot don't tend to get "knocked" around either.  I'm not going to provide any links here due to the sensitive nature of the content but I could show you plenty of examples of people being shot.  Someone on a horse would likely just "fall off" due to their reaction to being shot (e.g. lose their balance) or simply by being incapacitated where in that case, you'd probably just drop like a sack of potatoes. 

Being blown back, thrown/knocked around, etc. is mostly just Hollywood dramatics as @The_Liquor mentioned.  

[The Coca-Cola Kid]

If a Taliban riding a horse full speed toward an OP gets hit gets hit center mass by a 7.62 round from a rifle, he most definitely goes backward over the rear end of the horse, which is what I mean by my example. However, I understand your point about Hollywood and was just being picky.

Edited June 18, 2019 by The Coca-Cola Kid

[The_Liquor]

Just to be picky... if the 7.62 round missed Johnny Taliban completely, but he got so scared he keeled over from a heart attack, he’d likely fall off the back of the galloping horse as well LOL... it’s the physics of the galloping horse more than the bullet... Sorry, I’m just kind of teasing now.

[N7Creed]

"Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." So for the rider to be blow off the horse, the shooter would also have to be blown backward.

I think this is pertinent to the argument:

 

As a horse rider, I can confirm that short of a tree branch or other solid object (lance) physically blocking you while the horse continues on, it is the horse's momentum and the rider's balance that causes them to fall. If you got shot, it would be the instantly incapacitating pain/shock (or death) that would cause the rider to loose their balance and ability to stay on the horse. Even sitting still on a standing horse you don't sit it like a chair, your entire body is micro-adjusting for the horse's natural resting movements constantly. Any actual movement requires constant and instant adjustment of balance on the rider's part. Take away their ability to react and match to the horse under them and they will fall. 

[pluck3]

On 6/17/2019 at 8:18 AM, DNMNetTech said:

I saw a posse ghosting in and out this weekend. They were well away from any vendor or stranger. Not sure how they were doing it. They would come out of ghost just long enough to shoot and back ghosted again. I don't mind losing a fair fight. 

they shoot you then go in defensive mode 

[The Blue Hare]

On 6/18/2019 at 3:08 PM, The Coca-Cola Kid said:

I assume he meant more like “knocked out of the saddle”

Yep yep yep, like taking a big bore heavy grain round travelling 950 FPS in your reins-dominant shoulder. In the early seventies, I was a combat medic trauma specialist. I will stick with launched.

Edited June 20, 2019 by The Blue Hare
Addional comment

[DNMNetTech]

7 hours ago, pluck3 said:

they shoot you then go in defensive mode 

Defensive mode doesn't occur for 30 seconds. It also doesn't ghost out the player. The player can't go in and out at will either.

[Jeromy]

2 minutes ago, DNMNetTech said:

Defensive mode doesn't occur for 30 seconds. It also doesn't ghost out the player. The player can't go in and out at will either.

Exactly. Also, if your aggression changed or your blip changed color, it takes a while before you can use defensive mode.

[N7Creed]

The only way to force instant offensive/defensive would be to hack the game somehow... As far as I know.

[N7Creed]

2 hours ago, The Blue Hare said:

 I will stick with launched.

It certainly feels like you have been launched. I've ended up on the floor quite a distance away from my horse over the years. Most of the time I've no memory of the trip, only the before 'oh sh*t' moment and the  'ouch that hurts' afterward ones.

[Tom Dooley]

  RorshachFromHell said:

 

   "This guy took 5-6 shots from both of us and never went down. turned around and killed us with 1 pistol round each.."

 

 

   Yup, those abilitycards is like playing with cheats on, a bit from any kind of realism. And since Rockstar rewards those griefers for killing other players..

[The Blue Hare]

10 minutes ago, N7Creed said:

It certainly feels like you have been launched. I've ended up on the floor quite a distance away from my horse over the years. Most of the time I've no memory of the trip, only the before 'oh sh*t' moment and the  'ouch that hurts' afterward ones.

At full gallop my horse took an unexpected turn and reipped when I was 15 years old and I did a one-point landing on my face in the godforsaken desert. It knocked me out cold as a biscuit  I woke up 5 miles away in a bouncing '50s  F150 pickup truck with no springs, that reeked of mornin' cowpies, enroute to the hospital with two black eyes,  a busted cheek bone and a bad case of ugly.  Lucky for me it was the kind of ugly that goes away, not one of them that'll crack a mirror with age. I said launched and I meant it.

,