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Thoughts on border security?


RON
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This is open to everyone to comment on (the irony).

Yes, this has to do with the #BuildTheWall that 'Mericans are going on and on about. What is your opinion on this? This isn't meant to start some political debate or get angry, I just want to read opinions on it. I am for border security as all countries should have a say who comes into their country. Letting in a bunch of uneducated and unskilled workers just adds to the already high levels of unemployment. If you want to come here for an opportunity be it education or career, I am fine with that but if you only want to come here to squat and take advantage of the country you end up hurting us the most, the ones born here, the citizens. 

I think building a wall is a great idea but it sends a bad message. Instead of building a wall, why not have more security guards on duty down there? This will create tons of jobs for people and also do what the wall would do in a more attractive fashion. Completely open borders is moronic but jumping from one extreme to the other isn't a good idea either. 

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Ron

America became the behemoth it is today because substantively of the two world wars.... Wars which it stepped into at the most opportune moment for itself and it's currency. Whilst I see nothing wrong with that per se, that is the reality... It worked the wars to build the replacement for the tangible European empires it denounced at Versailles in 1919 and created a hegemonic fiscal power base, an intangible empire if you will.... That has not lasted.... Because capitalism turns and the USA along with the UK are now majorly 5th world countries, post industrial and wandering a wasteland of economic misery ..... Both were built on vast export power and control of other countries trade... But that has all withered and now they are left with the patriotic sentiment of power, but not the actual export/fiscal power.

It is difficult to explain this highly complex subject, simply ..... For an economy to grow in a capitalist model, one must have immigration of poor people ... They in fact do not take jobs, they create work by their presence... They are willing to work longer and harder for less money than 'a local' because in their view, the money has more value. This creates new work.......  It is somewhat strange that America, entirely built on immigration now wants a wall... well, the lower classes and less educated of course.

There are many parallels to be drawn between the conditions both social and political of the US and the UK presently with European conditions of the 1920's ... The masses are swallowing the exact same propaganda for the self same reasons..... Economic demise, poverty and mostly fear of the unknown. Whilst businessmen say "Leave me alone so I may prosper' .... The working class/blue collar say "I must be given work" ... When there is no work to be had they look for someone or something to blame ... Immigrants are a very simple target but not the issue in any manner.

But people like Trump and the Brexit mob, they pounce on this ignorance and they preach FEAR - GREED - HATE, just like the Fascists or National Socialists or Ultra Nationalists or indeed, Communists .... "Your life is awful because of those people... they are taking what is yours and laughing at you...." Then the masses work out the hate part on their own ... Now the clever part, because they fill in the hate, all of a sudden they think it was all their idea ... as Dr P Joseph Goebbels correctly identified  "Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will"

Jobs did not leave the USA or UK because of cheap wages per se, they left because the wages of the masses in those countries were dropping in real terms...... In the UK for example, ordinary workers have not seen a rise in their real income since the early 1970's and I suspect the US is the same......  So to sell them goods, one has to make them cheaper... so one sends the work elsewhere ... Today in China they send much work to Myanmar, because China has become too expensive for many products to be made there for it's local economy. The capitalist wheel never stops turning.

However it gets worse, much worse very soon ....... The real issue and the change from 20th century Europe is Ai and AGi ...... Ai, Artificial Intelligence and the more problematic, AGi .....Artificial General Intelligence.

Ai means we program a robotic machine to do something and it follows those instructions to the letter ... Nothing more or less... If you tell it to paint the car pink, it paints the car pink until told to stop.  Or pours coffee or flips burgers ........  Whilst AGI means a computer brain which says ... I think, therefore I am and it learns exponentionally by it;s own powers as a human child does.... but at billions of times the speed

In tests so far the issues start when these AGi units talk to another, the fact there is another 'brain' tells them they are in existence, they have something to make comparison with. .... So quite soon while you might tell it paint cars pink, it might decide it prefers blue, or you have too many pink cars.

The real upshot is this ... The turn of capitalism has created the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs in the USA & UK ... for them to be replaced by poorly paid service industry work .... But within 30 years there will be no service industry work either, because AGi and Ai will be doing it.

Then one has to start to talk about a Universal Basic Income model,  as is already happening in the halls of power ... Somehow people, the masses, they  have to be sustained when there is simply no work for them......  We are returning to Rome and 'Bread and Circus', or maybe 'Rollerball' ...... But certainly free food and free entertainment. The fundamental issue with that, as my wife a Dr of Psychology will tell you, is the complete loss of hope.

Who really buys lottery tickets?  Plays bingo and other non-skilled gambling? Poorer people.... Whilst  it is often millions and millions to one that they will win.... they still expend a relatively high % of their income on hope. That is what they are buying, hope.

So when you have no job, no possibility of a job, when your life choices are very limited and  almost totally dictated ... where is the hope? Just as these same people say 'I must be given work', then 'I must be given food and entertainment' they will soon say 'I must be given hope'

It is a conundrum yet to be answered ... But the wall?  That's just a smoke screen to stop the masses thinking.

 

Edited by Mazier_Drave
Typo as ever
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Security is one thing but banning people is another. I am all for people immigrating to the US legally. That is my only gripe. Do it LEGALLY. I don't care where you come from or if you are rich or poor, just respect the laws and I have no issues with you. My best friend immigrated here from Mexico about 9 years ago with his family. They all agree that people need to do it legally as they did. 

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Security needs to be better handled. There is no reason so many people should be in a country illegally. They need to increase the penalty of border hopping or staying past your visa to get people to stop doing it. I get that people are seeking a better life but so are millions of others in this world and they don't break laws to get the life they want. Some do but must just work towards a better life or give up.

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I really don't follow politics. I know we have a problem with illegal immigration but building a wall is just a temporary fix. It isn't going to solve the problem we have right now. I think they need to make immigration faster and less expensive but also give people incentives to actually come here and work. 

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The US is one of the few countries with really lax immigration laws.  When Trump won the election and all the celebrities and other idiots stated they're moving to canada, i thought that was funny.  Canada has immigration laws they enforce, many more than the US, and that's what i think Trump was going for.  Most of those idiots would have never gotten citizenship, or gave up in the long process it takes for Canadian citizenship.  

Put the wall up, modify the immigration laws so they fit here and now and the future, and then enforce them.  

I had to laugh at a news article i read about the "true facts" we should know about immigration,  it said something like only 400k illegal immigrants were caught in 2017,  down from 1.x million in 2015, supposedly from our border laws and border patrol.  

In reality the illegal immigrants got smarter and less got caught.  

Immigration has to be controlled, the wall is at least a starting point for this problem that has been ignored for decades.  I'm all for the wall, and i'm all for immigration, as long as it's legal.

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People are only against the wall because Trump is pushing for it. Obama, Bush, Hillary and Bill, they were all for putting a wall up but couldn't figure out the funding. The only reason the tide has shifted on it is that Trump wants it. I am not a fan of the man but people are acting really fn childish on both sides over it. I am talking specifically about the politicians not the identifying citizens in the general public. I expect MORE of the government. Not them acting like children. 

Edited by SNAK3S
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Sadly, politicians on both sides benefit from this. I am talking about people coming here illegally or those coming here legally just to live off the government and taxpayers money. I guess there is a huge problem with Medicare where 90% of the fraud is being done by people who are moving here, not born here. Everything is a mess really and the wall will help with some of it but it ignores a lot of other MAJOR problems. It isn't just Mexico who takes part in healthcare fraud, we get plenty from Africa as well. I can't remember the location exactly but the numbers are scary. The whole social security act is going to go up in smoke and leave a lot of low-income families and poor people without anything when it happens yet no one wants to talk about it. 

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On 1/11/2019 at 8:40 PM, LinXX said:

Sadly, politicians on both sides benefit from this. I am talking about people coming here illegally or those coming here legally just to live off the government and taxpayers money. I guess there is a huge problem with Medicare where 90% of the fraud is being done by people who are moving here, not born here. Everything is a mess really and the wall will help with some of it but it ignores a lot of other MAJOR problems. It isn't just Mexico who takes part in healthcare fraud, we get plenty from Africa as well. I can't remember the location exactly but the numbers are scary. The whole social security act is going to go up in smoke and leave a lot of low-income families and poor people without anything when it happens yet no one wants to talk about it. 

If they get the medical system sorted out and make coming into the country easier and quicker, I don't think we would have nearly as many illegal immigrants. I am fine with immigrants, we have plenty of room and jobs despite what people think but there has to be a common understanding to abide by the laws of this country and to not take advantage of our government aid systems. 

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11 hours ago, Reyes said:

If they get the medical system sorted out and make coming into the country easier and quicker, I don't think we would have nearly as many illegal immigrants. I am fine with immigrants, we have plenty of room and jobs despite what people think but there has to be a common understanding to abide by the laws of this country and to not take advantage of our government aid systems. 

I think there should be strict limitations for immigrants to receive government aid.  Right now it's handed to them without any requirements, maybe a waiting period or something.  Here they finally started doing mandatory drug tests to qualify for aid, so that at least eliminated the junkies trying to play the system. 

I applied for gov. aid when i lost a job about 15 years ago or so, (granted this was a long time ago, but it hasn't changed much from what i've been told recently, at least here anyway) I went in with a buddy of mine that also lost his job from the same company.  Both of us a single parent with 1 kid, both of us made the exact same wage at that job, and i know from previous discussions he paid $80 less in rent than i did. 

I got denied any and all aid as i made $0.18 over the limit.  After our meetings (we rode there together) i was bitching about being 18 cents over the limit.  He looked at me and said wow, they checked your wages? they didn't even look at mine.  And he got all the government aid, food stamps, living assistance, child care assistance, etc.  The only difference between him and I is I am white, and he is from Ecuador.  they went over my paperwork with a fine tooth comb, but didn't hardly look at his.  I should have checked a different box on the form than white lol.

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Please show me the statistics where illegals are causing all the crime and or making this country unsafe, and don't just quote Fox News please. Also if you build a wall (and there is some built already) they will just dig under it. Build it 10 or 25 or 100 feet below ground they will just dig a little deeper. All republican presidents in my lifetime have needed fear of something to stay in power. Nixon had Vietnam, Reagan had ussr/cold war, Bush 2 had 911 and Trump came in with the fear of the awful vegetable pickers! A physical wall is wasteful and in that right very republican. A better smart wall is a great idea. There is no logic to thinking criminals are all coming here when the corrupt countries they are currently in offer much better opportunities than the US. 

Edited by Rok
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On 1/14/2019 at 10:54 AM, Kormath said:

I should have checked a different box on the form than white lol.

My brother had to go through a long and pointless custody battle when my nephew was a baby. He too applied for some sort of financial aid. When he went in for the interview, they literally told him "you're the wrong color" and sent him on his way.

When I was looking for small scholarship opportunities through the local community college, I found that there is something for EVERYONE, excluding white males.

There is such a thing as "white privilege", but we are also held to a different standard.

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Since taxpayers are the prime supporters of financial help for people, they should have more of a say when it comes to where their money goes. The problem is, like with everything else, a few bad eggs will spoil the bunch. Everything has to be set up to keep the small numbers from taking advantage of the larger numbers in all scenarios but there are still loopholes and it is being abused. The immigration condition in the US  is one example of this.

As far as I am aware of, everyone is not facing racism. Even whites. It has become more of a problem now then it was just 10 years ago. Everyone is turning everything into skin color, moral views, and lifestyle preferences. It is all just too damn tiresome. I am sick of seeing people who speak out against the wrongdoings of others and yet do the "wrong" themselves. 

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On 1/15/2019 at 5:06 PM, D3x said:

As far as I am aware of, everyone is not facing racism. Even whites. It has become more of a problem now then it was just 10 years ago. Everyone is turning everything into skin color, moral views, and lifestyle preferences. It is all just too damn tiresome. I am sick of seeing people who speak out against the wrongdoings of others and yet do the "wrong" themselves. 

what burns me up are the idiots that don't understand what racism is but yell at people for being racist.  my favorite (if you can call it that) "Your racist for talking about Muslims", no that's a religion not a race.....

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I appreciate all the replies and keeping them civil. It is not easy to do this online these days. So I did a bit of digging and found multiple accounts of Bush, both Clintons and yes, even Obama calling for better security and a better wall being put at the border. I think someone mentioned this above. I am now convinced that this is only because Trump wants it done and that is just pure insanity. 

They need to make the immigration process easier, getting government aid harder, and just put up a better wall for security. I am fine with immigrants, 100% like I said. I just want people coming here legally. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

There have been thousands of years of human history involving ever-changing waves of human immigration, shifting borders, rising and falling empires. In the past 2000 years I can think of very few successful Walls. (China, Hadrian's, Berlin spring to mind, but no others do...)

None of them lasted long, none of them were successful in stopping the flow of human history, but in their favour each has provided their country with a popular tourist attraction.

So, get in early, set up your tour company, and in say 20 years you could be running tours to view the "Trump Wall"... or what's left of it after it has been scavenged for shanty-town building...

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On 12/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, HooverRAD said:

Our border security works great. We just kick the sh*t out of any English that are dumb enough to come over. :P

You don't like English people then? we don't have to come over a wall, sounds like you talk out of your A*** HOLE a lot!

How old are you?

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I'm all for improving security, but Trump's wall is only a band-aid on an infected wound. And you don't cure an infection by treating the surface wound. Plus, history is full of great powers that thought they were safe with their grandeur behind walls, only for them to eventually go down in spectacular ruin.

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On 2/13/2019 at 8:04 AM, Parzival said:

I'm all for improving security, but Trump's wall is only a band-aid on an infected wound. And you don't cure an infection by treating the surface wound. Plus, history is full of great powers that thought they were safe with their grandeur behind walls, only for them to eventually go down in spectacular ruin.

The wall would help and hurt. It will cost a lot which isn't good for the country. It will cut down on illegal immigrants from Mexico and drug trafficking/gun trafficking but they still need to fix the way people become citizens and what benefits you can and cannot get. Illegals shouldn't be able to get any kind of government-funded aid as they are breaking the law. No places should be hiring them either. Businesses should be punished more strictly on that. Make it so it is easier and safer to get a green card for people. Maybe give some incentives for it. 

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On 12/28/2018 at 8:25 PM, RON said:

. Instead of building a wall, why not have more security guards on duty down there?

How does the government adequately staff 1,954 miles of a border?  It'd be one thing if folks were only crossing into the country at ports of entry, but they're walking through desert, wilderness, crossing rivers and natural barriers to come into the country.

It's not a question of national security either, but one of health and human services as well.  The United States is already under assault from uneducated folks in the "anti-vax" movement--and many of the folks coming in without being processed are not vaccinated, thus compromising herd immunity.  The idea of a physical wall is gross and ugly, but I don't have a solution to offer in it's place.  It's one thing to tear into the idea of a wall if there's a viable, pragmatic alternative available, but I don't see one.

On 12/29/2018 at 5:26 AM, Mazier_Drave said:

I suspect the US is the same...... 

Accurate.  Wages have not kept pace with inflation.  

image.png.3d956ec26ca4f9fc5b5af93d9e4a5bbb.png

On 12/29/2018 at 5:26 AM, Mazier_Drave said:

Then one has to start to talk about a Universal Basic Income model,  as is already happening in the halls of power ... Somehow people, the masses, they  have to be sustained when there is simply no work for them...... 

There is another option: fewer people.  Now, I'm not advocating for government mandated population control nor do I think anything needs to be done to "cull the herd", but there needs to be incentives for people to not breed recklessly.  It's not 1880 anymore--families don't need large broods to help work the farm.  But if the government (at least here) were to offer say, a lifetime tax break for voluntary sterilization (or tax breaks for folks who are incapable of producing offsping), or even provide government funded vasectomies (much less invasive than what is done to sterilize women), or something I haven't thought of, there'd most likely be a decline in the birth rate, which would make immigration necessary to continue driving the economy, even in the face of the loss of future jobs due to technological advances.  

As it is now, folks are incentivized to have MORE kids--tax deductions and handouts for nonworking folks INCREASE with more children/dependents.  I understand the concept for providing financial assistance to folks in need so the children are better cared for, and I'm not advocating that those things should be taken away, but what I AM advocating for (as the parent of two kids) is that folks without children/dependents who make that decision should be encouraged to continue to do so.

On 1/14/2019 at 1:40 PM, Rok said:

A better smart wall is a great idea

How is a "smart" wall any different from a physical wall if the goal is to stop illegal immigration?  Not saying it's a bad idea, but I fail to see how a physical barrier is inferior to a camera system that will still require deploying assets to stop folks from illegally crossing into the country.  Border agents can only be in so many places at once, so advocating for a "smart wall" is symbolic--it does little to actually curb illegal immigration.

And how would a "smart wall" deter folks from tunneling, other than making it unnecessary since there'd be no barrier in the first place?

I'm not advocating for a wall to begin with.  What I DO want is for immigration laws that are in place to be enforced.  If a person is here illegally, (insert preferred pronoun here) should be deported, and go through the same process as everyone else who does it the right way.  No shortcuts.  The process we have is in place to ensure safety and security--folks need to be vaccinated, vetted, and not be evading prosecution in their country of origin.  There are countries with which the United States has treaties and agreements with, including agreements for extradition.  Conversely, we accept folks being politically or religiously prosecuted/persecuted from other areas based on demonstrable need.  Immigration reform is needed regardless of where folks stand on the concept of a wall, I think that's something we can all agree on.

On 1/15/2019 at 7:06 PM, D3x said:

Everyone is turning everything into skin color, moral views, and lifestyle preferences. It is all just too damn tiresome. I am sick of seeing people who speak out against the wrongdoings of others and yet do the "wrong" themselves. 

Could not agree more.  It rankles me when folks feel compelled to turn everything into a social issue.  I don't care if your skin is purple and you have six fingers.  Can you do your job?  Are you chill?  Do you like Guinness"?  If the answer to any one of these things is "yes" in the right context, then we're cool.  

On 2/13/2019 at 8:04 AM, Parzival said:

Trump's wall is only a band-aid on an infected wound. And you don't cure an infection by treating the surface wound

Placebo.  A wall won't do anything except slow illegal immigration.  Comprehensive immigration reform is my second most important political topic in the next election cycle, after balancing the federal budget and paying down the debt.  Government spending is out of control.

On 2/17/2019 at 2:26 PM, Looney Dan said:

It will cost a lot which isn't good for the country

Debatable.  5-7 billion is a drop in the bucket against the larger federal budget.  Case in point, the previous administration gave a country that is a state-sponsor of terrorism 1.7 billion without batting an eye.  This year, the United States is earmarking $27 billion on foreign aid:

image.png.b2d0366d73fb1e017b28907dc1002433.png

Every year, there's reports compiled by experts regarding the BILLIONS of dollars in pork barrel spending and government waste that gets earmarked to spending bills to get them passed.  A Senator in Cumberland, Iowa needs $6 million to keep a regional airport open so the cows can get special feed flown in, or some rep in west Texas needs $5 million to offset tax incentives for billionaire oil tycoons.  It's gross and it needs to stop.  

My dream is for Congress to pass an Amendment which requires the federal budget to be balanced EVERY YEAR.  Get our financial house in order, THEN start tackling the other issues that need to be addressed.

 

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